Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All. • Hacker News Board

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#111

Post by rjbwork » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

faitswulff wrote: post #65

The kind of moralizing about making the right decisions stigmatizes people who couldn't make it through college for financial reasons and weren't able to find a job afterward and pay off their debt. It stigmatizes grad students who started off with good intentions but couldn't make it through the meat grinder. It stigmatizes first generation college students who had to return home after a year or two. All of these pe…

It also penalizes people who lived extremely frugally after college in order to pay off their debts and delayed starting many aspects of life. I rented tiny rooms and cooked for myself and drove an old used car and skimped and saved on a LOT of things to be able to pay off my student loans quickly. In such a case I would be penalized for being responsible. Reimburse all student loan and tuition payers if you're going to pay off existing debt. Your sentiment simply does not account for individual variation in frugality and responsibility. We do not want to incentivize irresponsible behavior any more than we already do.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#112

Post by thebean11 » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #108

thebean11 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because its not... an ongoing thing available to people in the future So the debt gets cancelled then banks and institutions restart their vicious cycle of predatory education price and predatory education loans? What exactly is the goal here?

> What exactly is the goal here? To mitigate the social harms resulting from the current debt load that have accumulated over decades as part of a process that includes development of policies to prevent getting back to the same state. (Some of which actually may already have been adopted, as all of the debt areas at issue have seen policy reforms over the last decades that could be part of that, though most cancella…

> as part of a process that includes development of policies to prevent getting back to the same state.

Can you give an example? I may just be out of the loop.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#113

Post by Turing_Machine » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

floor2 wrote: post #13

The terminology of "cancelling" the debt is the most dishonest, twisted abuse of the English language. There is no "cancelling" debt. There's only forcing other people to pay. The incentives here are entirely backwards. All the people who made good decisions around cost-benefit of their education, all the people who made frugal choices, all the people who worked hard for the delayed gratification of their long-term p…

Bob, 35 years old, is an excellent cook (but not a great businessman). He takes out an SBA loan to start a restaurant (failure rate for restaurants: very, very high). The restaurant goes belly up. Bob is allowed to file bankruptcy and walk away from the debt.

Jim, 50 years old, watches "house-flipping" shows on cable TV and decides that he wants to be a real estate baron. He starts flipping houses using VA/FHA loans. The real estate market tanks. Jim is allowed to file bankruptcy and walk away from the debt.

Dave, 18 years old, isn't a very good student, but every authority figure in his life (parents, teachers, ministers, you name it) tells him he HAS to have a college education. He takes out government loans to get one in a field with easy classes but low employability. But unlike Bob and Jim, Dave isn't allowed to file bankruptcy and walk away from the debt.

Can you justify Dave being held to a higher standard than Bob and Jim?

I've asked this question many times, but have never seen a convincing answer.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#114

Post by hackeraccount » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

How would this affect future debt? I would expect it's just raising the risk of default and as a consequence the interest that lenders ask.

TANSTAAFL maybe, but more likely the lunch is going to get paid by the future... which is kind of like a loan that no one out there can cancel.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#115

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

willyg123 wrote: post #86

dragonwriter wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no "cancelling" debt. There's only forcing other people to pay. No, there is actually cancelling debt. There is also forcing someone else to pay, but that’s a different thing. Its probably the case that only some (such as government-held portion) of the debt at issue could Constitutionally be cancelled, in the strict sense, though. > The incentives here are entirely backwards. Because its not (unlike, say,…

> No, there is actually cancelling debt. There is also forcing someone else to pay, but that’s a different thing. How are these different things? -Money was disbursed to the university. That money came from somewhere! -If the loan gets canceled and the student does not pay it back, those who contributed the disbursed the money are the ones being forced to pay.

I think the difference is this: If you owe me money, I can cancel your debt. But if I won't cancel it, you could also end the debt by forcing dragonwriter to pay me. That's different because there's a third party involved.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#116

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #108

thebean11 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because its not... an ongoing thing available to people in the future So the debt gets cancelled then banks and institutions restart their vicious cycle of predatory education price and predatory education loans? What exactly is the goal here?

> What exactly is the goal here? To mitigate the social harms resulting from the current debt load that have accumulated over decades as part of a process that includes development of policies to prevent getting back to the same state. (Some of which actually may already have been adopted, as all of the debt areas at issue have seen policy reforms over the last decades that could be part of that, though most cancella…

Yeah, but the most likely outcome is removing the current debt load without making the changes that prevent things getting back to the same state. The result will be that everybody rushes gleefully back into the same state, expecting to be rescued again.

At least, that's what seems "most likely" to me...

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#117

Post by leereeves » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #113

floor2 wrote: post #13

The terminology of "cancelling" the debt is the most dishonest, twisted abuse of the English language. There is no "cancelling" debt. There's only forcing other people to pay. The incentives here are entirely backwards. All the people who made good decisions around cost-benefit of their education, all the people who made frugal choices, all the people who worked hard for the delayed gratification of their long-term p…

Bob, 35 years old, is an excellent cook (but not a great businessman). He takes out an SBA loan to start a restaurant (failure rate for restaurants: very, very high). The restaurant goes belly up. Bob is allowed to file bankruptcy and walk away from the debt. Jim, 50 years old, watches "house-flipping" shows on cable TV and decides that he wants to be a real estate baron. He starts flipping houses using VA/FHA loans.…

The lender takes Bob's business and Jim's house. How is the lender going to take Dave's degree?

Dave is the only one of the three who could keep the asset after declaring bankruptcy, if that were allowed.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#118

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #41

gruez wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you can't take into account the nearness of the the jubilee to not make a loan What's preventing you from getting a huge loan 1 day before the jubilee?

I read my bible as a Christian, so I know what it says. However I'm not immersed in the culture as it actually played out in practice. From a reading of the law there seems to be nothing, but I suspect there is something I'm missing. I'm not sure if there is something about who/how you can ask for a loan (thus meaning such a loan couldn't be requested just anytime), or if the culture allowed you to refuse to make big…

And what Jesus said was "Do not hold back from him who would borrow from you". The point of that may well have been the jubilee.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#119

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #110

hedberg10 wrote: post #15

Okay, NYT, you start. Make your work free. (It's an NYT opinion piece, so straight into the garbage it goes, but it's written by Astra Taylor, who I value for her contributions to unschooling way back when, but since it's not free, I can't be bothered)

The argument is generally not that people should not be paid. Instead the argument is that the terms of the debt are not just or that people did not enter into the debt fully voluntarily (e.g. medical debt isn't much of a choice when the alternative is death/disability, student loan debt isn't much of a choice when low skilled positions don't pay a living wage). The proposed solution generally takes the form of cance…

And if we genuinely do the third step, so that we don't repeatedly wind up back in the same place, then we have something to talk about. Without the third step, it's going to work as an invitation to people to get into debt and expect to be bailed out. (You can say that people shouldn't take it that way, but you know that at least some will.)

The problem is, while Astra Taylor may get that, I'm not sure that Biden does. I haven't noticed the "reforming society" part in the debt forgiveness proposals that have been floated.

Re: Student Loans. Medical Debt. Criminal Justice Fees. Cancel It All.

#120

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

D13Fd wrote: post #97

rhino369 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I paid off a balance of 260k dollars in student loans. Former classmates, who make exactly the same amount of money, who instead used their salaries to buy a house get a windfall? How is that good policy? Our current system already allows for cancellation for low income individuals. This is subsidy for the upper half of the middle class.

I couldn't agree more. I'm in the same bucket. My wife and I worked hard, scrimped and saved, lived way below our means, and paid off our student debt ~15 years early. But now people want us to have to pay everyone else's debt too, through our taxes? The only way this could possibly be fair is if they offer some kind of credit for loans already paid.

That's still not fair. Let's say I worked two jobs to put myself through college. I only could attend half time, so it took me eight years. I'm going to pay taxes to subsidize those who took out loans? How is that fair?

Or, I never went to college. I just started working right after high school. I make less than those who went to college. I'm going to pay taxes for this? How is that fair?