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When Orcs Were Real

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Re: When Orcs Were Real

#101

Post by poisonarena »

mellavora wrote: post #90
AlexSW wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the majority of what you're saying, but like so many wars throughout history, surely superior weaponry played a huge role in the conquests? Particularly here where the difference is so large. Not the only role, certainly, and maybe not the biggest (compared to disease), but a very sizable one still. I struggle to imagine Spanish success had the weapons been reversed.

By "superior weaponry" playing a role in the conquest, are you referring to Russia's successful conquest of Afghanistan in the 1980, or to the United State's successful conquest of Afghanistan in the 2000's?

these conflicts cannot really be compared how you are comparing them. Also it should be noted that US lost 2,420 soldier in Afghanistan, probably 50 thousand or more Taliban died, and 200+ thousand civilians.. US may have not 'won' the war but Afghanistan sure did lose.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#102

Post by jamesmishra »

> The real question is why — why does every civilization have similar myths? Why does every culture have legends of monstrous humanoids, and why are they are always depicted as fearsome and dangerous?

I assume that most myths of orcs, elves, dwarves, vampires, etc. were based on ugly-looking Homo sapiens as opposed to other hominid species. Humans have also had a strong incentive to (literally) dehumanize other tribes of humans.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#103

Post by gpm »

peeters wrote: post #93

So even if we accept everything being said of the Neanderthals, this is left completely undefended: > Why does every culture have legends of monstrous humanoids, and why are they are always depicted as fearsome and dangerous? Because the legends were real. The orcs were real. Is the author really suggesting that these stories are the product of an unbroken chain of 50,000 years of oral tradition? If not, what do even…

Are you suggesting that there isn't an unbroken chain of oral tradition? That for some generations in the middle every child didn't talk to their parents or other members of the older generation?

It's a game of broken telephone no doubt, but I don't see how that chain could not exist.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#104

Post by Ozzie_osman »

peeters wrote: post #93

So even if we accept everything being said of the Neanderthals, this is left completely undefended: > Why does every culture have legends of monstrous humanoids, and why are they are always depicted as fearsome and dangerous? Because the legends were real. The orcs were real. Is the author really suggesting that these stories are the product of an unbroken chain of 50,000 years of oral tradition? If not, what do even…

What we fear is probably a combination of nature and nurture. Our fear of orc-looking people could be a combination of 50K years of oral tradition AND us evolving to be scared of people who look like orcs.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#105

Post by beaconstudios »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #83
beaconstudios wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not both? The Conquistadors had guns and steel armour and swords, versus the Mesoamericans' copper, bronze and obsidian weapons plus bows & atlatls. Technologically, the Spanish had the advantage, and won militarily. In addition, the indigenous population was ravaged by disease brought by the colonisers. Having better weapons is not an argument to ethnic superiority. It comes down to geography and history. The my…

That's interesting what you say about the wheel because the narrative I've heard is instead about gunpowder: the Conquistadores had gunpowder weapons that frightened the Aztecs and dispersed their armies without a fight, even though they had numbers on their side. I've also heard the same thing about horses: the Aztecs were afraid of horses and so broke and run at the sight of the Spaniards on horses. These are not v…

I think La Noche Triste speaks to the superiority of infantry with melee weapons to cavalry with muskets in close quarters urban fighting. Tenochtitlan was an absolute maze, and the Aztec defenders knew it well because it was their home.

I do agree that the alliance with Tlaxcala is underplayed in the pop culture understanding of the conquest.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#106

Post by throwaway316943 »

peeters wrote: post #93

So even if we accept everything being said of the Neanderthals, this is left completely undefended: > Why does every culture have legends of monstrous humanoids, and why are they are always depicted as fearsome and dangerous? Because the legends were real. The orcs were real. Is the author really suggesting that these stories are the product of an unbroken chain of 50,000 years of oral tradition? If not, what do even…

The stories we tell are never cut from whole cloth, they are a constant mixing and blending of ancient tradition with contemporary experience. I don’t doubt that any folklore which has reached us from the distant past has been remade a thousand times but the heart of the story has likely survived. The fear of it is so intense it has been bred into us. The thump of something heavy in the night, the bristling silence of a stealthy, lurking beast. The glimpse of a dark fearsome shape. The looming threat of a powerful limb tearing you from your bed. The feeling that this presence is not simply some hungry and fearful animal but a malevolent intelligence that seeks to do you harm. You feel it deep within you, the fear not of tooth and claw but an inhumanly powerful hand grabbing you from behind.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#107

Post by nradov »

soapdog wrote: post #59
Bayart wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acknowledging the weight of passive factors (disease) shouldn't be at the cost of disqualifying the role of active ones like technology (military, political, administrative, trades). The Spanish had plenty of military engagements in the early colonization of the Americas that were easily solved purely because of their overwhelming technological advantages.

That is the biased narrative that we have been told for centuries, and it doesn't match recent research. Diseases happened first, they travel faster. The population affected devolves into chaos as disease often kills 9 in 10 and leave them without ruling and without those with specialised knowledge. Basically society is broken, the traumatised survivors are the ones that face the Europeans. > military, political, adm…

The civilizations in the Americas were certainly large and complex, but in almost all areas of technology they were thousands of years behind Europeans. It's a real stretch to label them "advanced".

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#108

Post by Igelau »

littlestymaar wrote: post #54

> and carried off and raped our women. (How did you think the Neanderthal DNA got into our genome?) I don't know if Neandertals were rapist, but given the behavior of Sapiens, it wouldn't be completely surprising if it was in fact the opposite: Sapiens abducting Neandertal females and raping them…

That's kind of tricky considering how much stronger and more robust an average Neanderthal would have been compared to an average Sapiens.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#109

Post by beaconstudios »

gota wrote: post #86
beaconstudios wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not both? The Conquistadors had guns and steel armour and swords, versus the Mesoamericans' copper, bronze and obsidian weapons plus bows & atlatls. Technologically, the Spanish had the advantage, and won militarily. In addition, the indigenous population was ravaged by disease brought by the colonisers. Having better weapons is not an argument to ethnic superiority. It comes down to geography and history. The my…

But if the huge population of 'primitives' does not die out massively from disease, soon they are adopting the techniques and material of the 'advanced', no? Even if they can't readily adapt to mining, metalworking and smithing, they sure can steal and plunder weapons and horses and gradually become more and more competitive Not to mention that guerilla warfare is effective like few other things

Primitives isn't the right word for the Mesoamericans. They were a socially advanced society; their circumstances just didn't lead them to develop the large scale military hardware and techniques that Europe did.

I would assume they did loot guns and horses from their defeated adversaries, yes. The only scenario in which that makes you more and more competitive is when you acquire comparable numbers of said resources, and can use them as effectively as an army that has been trained in their use. I don't think either is the case, but this is just me hypothesising because I only know the high level details of the conquest.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#110

Post by escape_goat »

Folcon wrote: post #76
soapdog wrote: post #24

> Europeans defeated indigenous peoples throughout history, by superior technology and numbers. Oh boi, not this horrible and flawed argument again. People have learned nothing from recent research into the impact of diseases in that history? Popular books like "Guns, Germs, and Steel", and "1491" give you a view into these matters and provide one with references for their sources for research. This idea of "Europe w…

"Guns, Germs, and Steel" is a good book, really enjoyable read. But speaking to historian friends of mine has given me the impression that it's not highly regarded in those circles. Unfortunately I can't give any criticisms beyond that because it has been a long time since I had those discussions and the details just don't come to mind, so I guess really what I'm saying is though it's a popular and enjoyable read, pe…

One of the remaining gems within my reddit horizons is the /r/AskHistorians subreddit, which maintains an FAQ that (amongst many other things) contains a plethora of academic responses to GGS. I have included below a link to the top and presumably most comprehensive response [1] for those who are interested.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2mkcc3/how_d...

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