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A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (2003)

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Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (2003)

#41
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Below a certain size, everything fuses, joins, or accumulates. But beyond a certain size,everything collapses or explodes I suppose that (quasi) monopolists like Google, Amazon, and Apple are still to small for that thesis?

These are corporations, not groups of people. The rule can be observed if you look at groups in that corporation.

Isn't a corporation just a group of groups?

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (2003)

#43
post #31
post #13

"Less is different -- small groups of people can engage in kinds of interaction that large groups can't. And so we blew past that interesting scale of small groups". Leopold Kohr thesis (such as "Below a certain size, everything fuses, joins, or accumulates. But beyond a certain size,everything collapses or explodes") are pertinent.

> Below a certain size, everything fuses, joins, or accumulates. But beyond a certain size,everything collapses or explodes I suppose that (quasi) monopolists like Google, Amazon, and Apple are still to small for that thesis?

[deleted]

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (2003)

#44

Tragedy of the commons is the killer of decentralization since day 1. Try polluting the shared space around your building (with clutter for example) and see how long it takes for you to be censored. Self-censoring is how we maintain our liberty to pollute but it can go too far though; some deep-pocket people can largely avoid feedback because no one dares to go against them. There is always some tension between censo…

I now what you mean, but I just wanted to add something to your one example. What do you mean by "nude beach vs downtown big city"? There are parks in some European cities where you can sunbath in the nude. I guess it is still an example of this, because it is getting less common, because of globalization and risk of being recorded for the whole world to see.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (2003)

#45
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Below a certain size, everything fuses, joins, or accumulates. But beyond a certain size,everything collapses or explodes I suppose that (quasi) monopolists like Google, Amazon, and Apple are still to small for that thesis?

Chat services usually rot and go the way of MySpace. Remember cuseeme, aol instant messenger, icq, irc, Skype, Skype for business, Lynq, paltalk, Facebook messenger, tivejo, … Facebook was originally where cool kids hang out now grandma is on it. Facebook is always buying a competitor or imitating one or aiming a service at really young kids to stay ahead of the rot.

I agree a lot of young people don't really use Facebook profiles anymore, but most people I know still use Facebook messenger. It's easy to find people because most people are on there with real name/picture, and the group chats work pretty smoothly. Granted I'm a millennial so maybe the actual kids these days don't use it at all, but I wouldn't lump it in with those dead services.

I actually think for a messenger platform it's probably a good thing that even grandma is on there. The problem with having a bunch of Boomers around is of course the social media posting aspect.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (2003)

#46
"It has to be hard to do at least some things on the system for some users, or the core group will not have the tools that they need to defend themselves. Now, this pulls against the cardinal virtue of ease of use. But ease of use is wrong...

The user of social software is the group, not the individual."

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (2003)

#47
post #42

Is there a TL;DR?

From the conclusion, "Writing social software is hard. And, as I said, the act of writing social software is more like the work of an economist or a political scientist. And the act of hosting social software... is more like a relationship of landlords to tenants than owners to boxes in a warehouse.

The people using your software, even if you own it and pay for it, have rights and will behave as if they have rights. And if you abrogate those rights, you'll hear about it very quickly."

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (2003)

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chat services usually rot and go the way of MySpace. Remember cuseeme, aol instant messenger, icq, irc, Skype, Skype for business, Lynq, paltalk, Facebook messenger, tivejo, … Facebook was originally where cool kids hang out now grandma is on it. Facebook is always buying a competitor or imitating one or aiming a service at really young kids to stay ahead of the rot.

I agree a lot of young people don't really use Facebook profiles anymore, but most people I know still use Facebook messenger. It's easy to find people because most people are on there with real name/picture, and the group chats work pretty smoothly. Granted I'm a millennial so maybe the actual kids these days don't use it at all, but I wouldn't lump it in with those dead services. I actually think for a messenger pl…

You have to distinguish things that are age dependent (generic about 20 year olds at different times) as opposed to cohort dependent (specific to people born in 2021.)

When people born in 2001 are grand(p|m)as I think they'll have a similar relationship to the cohort of 2061. That is, there will be some things 2061ers will want to share with them and other things 2061ers won't.

There is some cohort ⨯ age interaction, for instance the boomer cohort has been so large that some tv viewing slots are saturated for ads about "you might not be getting all the medicare benefits you deserve" to the point that it drives away other viewers.

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (2003)

#49
post #31
post #13

"Less is different -- small groups of people can engage in kinds of interaction that large groups can't. And so we blew past that interesting scale of small groups". Leopold Kohr thesis (such as "Below a certain size, everything fuses, joins, or accumulates. But beyond a certain size,everything collapses or explodes") are pertinent.

> Below a certain size, everything fuses, joins, or accumulates. But beyond a certain size,everything collapses or explodes I suppose that (quasi) monopolists like Google, Amazon, and Apple are still to small for that thesis?

I agree with 411111111111111's answer: GAFAM are are corps, not stable groups. Teams' members are renewed quite frequently, this is an unstable setup, in a way constantly collapsing/exploding.

I also agree with TheFreim's comment, each corp is a group of groups. Alexander Zinoviev wrote that real (useful, innovative...) work is always done by a single person or a small group. Google, Amazon, Apple and other successful huge companies genius and key-to-success is to maintain small groups, each as autonomous as possible and producing some valuable thing, then to compose their results.

Any productive big institution isn't a perfectly consistent and stable machine built with all-tightly-coupled human components, but an unstable (constantly renewed) patchwork/hodgepodge where a few entities (groups) are productive (most aren't), each small and much more free to act as they want to than it may appear to the casual observer.

In Apple's case S. Jobs was pretty clear about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f60dheI4ARg , see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5enAGG51PQ

Re: A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy (2003)

#50
post #44

Tragedy of the commons is the killer of decentralization since day 1. Try polluting the shared space around your building (with clutter for example) and see how long it takes for you to be censored. Self-censoring is how we maintain our liberty to pollute but it can go too far though; some deep-pocket people can largely avoid feedback because no one dares to go against them. There is always some tension between censo…

I now what you mean, but I just wanted to add something to your one example. What do you mean by "nude beach vs downtown big city"? There are parks in some European cities where you can sunbath in the nude. I guess it is still an example of this, because it is getting less common, because of globalization and risk of being recorded for the whole world to see.

I ment that it is likely that you are expected to self-censor nudity (by law) in a city while you are censoring signaling on a nude beach (or in any nudist place).
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