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When Orcs Were Real

treeofwoe.substack.com

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Re: When Orcs Were Real

#11

Post by akomtu »

fogihujy wrote: post #4

I'm not sure about the descriptions of Neanderthals presented in this article, but the idea that old tales of orcs and elves originated many millennia ago as descriptions of other human species or other primates isn't that far-fetched.

Pretty much all our mythology and fairy tales, including the Tolkien's world, Harry Potter and many movies are based on what I'd call the "occult records". Those records were made partially public at least two centuries before Tolkien was born, so it can't be a coincidence that so many elements of his world match 1:1 with those records. Whether those records are true is a separate question.

Using occult chronology, Tolkien's world corresponds to the Atlantis period (the same Atlantis described by Plato). Tolkien took most of the interesting bits from different epochs and compressed them into one short story. The tall people (2x taller than us) in his story are the atlanteans, Saruman and Gendalf must be Narad and Asuramaya and orcs are creatures made by the evil faction during the late Atlantis when the civilization was on decline. The records say, though, that the bad guys won at the end and the atmosphere during that final chapter was shown in the Prometheus movie. All movies and books, though, present a rosy version of orcs and other evil stuff from the records - an accurate picture would be unthinkable even in the book format.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#12

Post by quietbritishjim »

roenxi wrote: post #6
shp0ngle wrote: post #2

The first comment on the substack links to this article, from 2010, that basically refutes this theory and this book. https://blog.waikato.ac.nz/bioblog/2010/10/killer-neandertal...

"Proves" and "refutes" are both pretty vague words in a historical context. In my experience when historians say "I will prove this to you" they typically mean "not only is it a good story, but unusually I have at least 1 piece of actual evidence". So in the loose world of history where nobody has any idea, maybe the idea is refuted. Realistically, probably both posts are wrong but we'll never know about which aspect…

The article linked by the parent is very clear about when things are unknown or suspected but unproven (from real but inconclusive archaeological evidence). In contrast, it shows that the book in question is completely speculative (not based on any archaeological evidence whatsoever) while presenting itself as unequivocally correct.

There is no need to beat around the bush. The linked article fully refutes the original one.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#13

Post by sgt101 »

slg wrote: post #5
sgt101 wrote: post #3

If anyone is interested in a more informed and modern take try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindred_(book)

That might be the shortest Wikipedia article I have ever seen. Here[1] is a review from NPR that provides more info. [1] - https://www.npr.org/2020/10/27/927772107/kindred-dismantles-...

Yea - I linked it to avoid a link to a bookseller :)

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#14

Post by fogihujy »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #8
fogihujy wrote: post #4

I'm not sure about the descriptions of Neanderthals presented in this article, but the idea that old tales of orcs and elves originated many millennia ago as descriptions of other human species or other primates isn't that far-fetched.

I always though that dragons were also sourced from a vague genetic memory passed down from very remote ancestors that met dino descendants.

Well, there's been a number of very large bird and reptile species that humanity has been in contact with since the dawn of man. Many of our forefathers were rather small compared to modern humans, and a gigantic serpent or amphibian would probably be outright terrifying for small early humans armed with rocks and spears.

I'm not sure about genetic memory, but human oral tradition is very old, and while I haven't heard about any evidence suggesting it predates modern humans, I wouldn't be surprised if there are stories that turns out to be as old as human language is.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#16

Post by KptMarchewa »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #8
fogihujy wrote: post #4

I'm not sure about the descriptions of Neanderthals presented in this article, but the idea that old tales of orcs and elves originated many millennia ago as descriptions of other human species or other primates isn't that far-fetched.

I always though that dragons were also sourced from a vague genetic memory passed down from very remote ancestors that met dino descendants.

Or found their skeletons.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#17

Post by trompetenaccoun »

roenxi wrote: post #6
shp0ngle wrote: post #2

The first comment on the substack links to this article, from 2010, that basically refutes this theory and this book. https://blog.waikato.ac.nz/bioblog/2010/10/killer-neandertal...

"Proves" and "refutes" are both pretty vague words in a historical context. In my experience when historians say "I will prove this to you" they typically mean "not only is it a good story, but unusually I have at least 1 piece of actual evidence". So in the loose world of history where nobody has any idea, maybe the idea is refuted. Realistically, probably both posts are wrong but we'll never know about which aspect…

Nonsense, look at the actual archaeological record from the time. Yes, anything could have been but then the person making those claims has to provide proper evidence for it, not the other way around.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#18

Post by dragonwriter »

fogihujy wrote: post #4

I'm not sure about the descriptions of Neanderthals presented in this article, but the idea that old tales of orcs and elves originated many millennia ago as descriptions of other human species or other primates isn't that far-fetched.

> the idea that old tales of orcs and elves originated many millennia ago as descriptions of other human species or other primates isn't that far-fetched.

Given that we know that thoughout recorded history people have made stories like that up about the community of the same human species over the next hill, it may be not-too-farfetched, but it is also a wildly unnecessary conjecture.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#19

Post by Semiapies »

shp0ngle wrote: post #2

The first comment on the substack links to this article, from 2010, that basically refutes this theory and this book. https://blog.waikato.ac.nz/bioblog/2010/10/killer-neandertal...

Yeah, I remember when this 'theory" came around the first time. It was silly even in passing, and supporters weren't even playing up the idea that the entirety of humanity had migrated to the Levant in order to be nearly wiped out by Neanderthals. Especially when there's a much more plausible alternative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory

When someone gets introduced as a "heterodox thinker", there's always something badly thought-out coming.

Re: When Orcs Were Real

#20

Post by Bayart »

akomtu wrote: post #11
fogihujy wrote: post #4

I'm not sure about the descriptions of Neanderthals presented in this article, but the idea that old tales of orcs and elves originated many millennia ago as descriptions of other human species or other primates isn't that far-fetched.

Pretty much all our mythology and fairy tales, including the Tolkien's world, Harry Potter and many movies are based on what I'd call the "occult records". Those records were made partially public at least two centuries before Tolkien was born, so it can't be a coincidence that so many elements of his world match 1:1 with those records. Whether those records are true is a separate question. Using occult chronology, T…

You're looking for far-fetched explanations where his academic track record, most notably on Beowulf, provides a completely natural meta-mythological basis for his works.
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