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Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

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Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#311
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

65% of Americans have no clue what it takes to run a business of any scale. They can barely calculate a tip at the restaurant, yet they think they are qualified to make decisions on taxation. The flavor of democracy we practice has been good. However, we must be honest enough to admit it can degenerate into mob rule, which generally means decisions are made by the most gullible and ignorant among us on any specific t…

> There is no way my vote on a whole range of medical issues should have the same value as that of a medical professional, such as my wife. In June last year, the medical crème de la crème were proclaiming that COVID antibodies last 3 months. I (an engineer with no formal biology training past high school) read some obscure studies that past Sars-Cov-1 infection seems to still provide protection against severe Sars-C…

> common sense is worth at least as much as a medical degree

I had to read that twice.

The only way someone can have that thought is if they have no clue --at all-- about what a medical degree entails. Sorry my friend, you don't know what you are talking about.

Try this: Next time you need serious medical care...don't go to the ER or any doctor for that matter...just use common sense. Let's see how far that takes you.

Doctors are human beings. They are not gods. They are not perfect. And yet a medical degree --the knowledge and perspective that comes with it-- DWARFS even the most informed common sense.

Don't confuse politics with science.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're misunderstanding the concept here, this has nothing to do with dodging responsibility for unpopular policies. If you think countries shouldn't tax corporate profits at all, great, but that's a separate discussion; this is predicated on the assumption that all countries desire a non-zero corporate tax, and just need a way to get there. The point of this measure is to avoid a coordination trap that leads…

Is it a 'coordination trap' or are we just inventing new terminology for a cartel? When OPEC coordinates effectively, we are not under any illusions about how their collusion is cartel behavior that inhibits competition and distorts markets. But when powerful nations do so and use their immense power (soft influence via diplomacy, economic policy, etc.) to bring a large number of other countries onto their plan, sudd…

> are we just inventing new terminology for a cartel?

Sure, you can call it what you like; what matters is, does it deserve the same negative connotation as "cartel"? The answer to that depends on your position on:

> Ultimately taxes going to zero is a good thing because it is a sign of competitiveness between tax structures favoring more efficient governments.

...which is incorrect, because "efficiency" is not tax rate alone, it's tax rate compared to services offered. We're not talking about countries cutting their tax rate because they're more efficient; Ireland doesn't know how to build roads cheaper than England does. We're talking about countries that decide to cut their tax rate and cut services proportionally in order to entice immigrants. They aren't any more efficient the day after they do that than the day before, they're just selling a shoddier product at a lower price point.

And it's worth pointing out, if you think of government as a product and tax rates as the price, the reason we have this problem in the first place is that the market is broken by allowing corporations to "buy" one product but "use" another. For a company to primarily operate in the USA but pay corporate taxes to Bermuda is roughly equivalent to a man who drives off the lot in a new Benz but is making payments on a used Buick. If the market were functional - if the "price" a corporation chooses to pay in deciding where to be patriated were aligned with the "value" they receive in access to infrastructure and markets - we wouldn't be here discussing this agreement because it wouldn't be needed.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#313
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is kind of all over the place and riddled with non-sequiters; Blanket dismissals aren't helpful. As the guidelines state: "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." >I will simply point out that we could raise the capital gains rate 5% tomorrow, and it would still be lower than it was when Amazon and Google were founded. Well Google w…

> Where are you getting your numbers? I was under the impression that the Google founders started in January of '96, when the rate was 28%, and '98 was when they legally incorporated. Perhaps they originally intended Google to be a non-profit, and only changed their minds in reaction to the rate cut in 1997? > A good critical comment teaches us something. Interesting complaint. What was yours intended to teach me? Ot…

It doesn't have to refute your original point to teach something.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a globalized economy we need lower taxes. Zero would be an even better number. Isn’t that point precisely addressed by the Biden administrations of setting a global minimum tax rate? If every country, or at least every country without signify the trade barriers (who cares what happens in North Korea) has the same tax rate than there’s no incentive for companies to move their profits - or the entire company - abr…

If you think China and others will abide by this nonsense you might need to review how business is supported by government in China. Did you know they can export products at cost and still make up to 15% on their international sales? The world is not a level playing field. Did you know it costs them darn near zero dollars to ship products within the US, while US companies have to pay full fare? The ONLY way the US an…

>The ONLY way the US and Europe could rebuild a solid industrial base lost to China is to be so pro-business it would make most of the uninformed projectile vomit. If we can do that and maintain it for 25 to 50 years we might have a shot at it. Nothing else will work.

Or you just introduce CO2 tariffs and use them to wreck China in the process of building a CO2 neutral economy.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That graph is showing share of income (thus the y-axis is labeled in percentage [of total income]). That graph makes no statement whatsoever about whether real income in the bottom 50% has gone down, stayed flat, or risen over the 30-year period under discussion. For that, you’d look at a real income chart over the 30 year period, which would show that real income has increased over that span. If incomes at the botto…

sigh. I feel so much more financially secure these days now that my pay is $1 more than 5 years ago, shame my cost of housing doubled. this is why I think it will be hilarious when the kids start revolting, and burning shit down folks like you will be looking at graphs and going "how can they be upset, look at this graph! these gig economy renters should be jumping up and down with joy according to my statistics...un…

You're mixing up individual and group. As a group, people who have jobs have had their incomes go up.

Yours as an individual may not have. No one is saying you're ungrateful as an individual when your experience is different to the group's average.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does turning the poorest people in a country into wage slaves "benefit" those poor countries? Those poor people would be better off just being self sufficient farmers at that point. Workers at foxconn were literally killing themselves because of how bad the conditions were. When do we as a society decide that industrialization makes life worse for a huge percentage of the population? These multinationals go into…

Would the workers at Foxconn be better off if we took away their option to work at Foxconn? In general, if they thought that was their best option, it's hard for me to accept at that step an argument that providing them that option is making their life worse [than it would otherwise be]. Maybe there are a few more steps in the argument that make that position stronger?

Pretty much every country had or will have an exploitation phase before they get wealthy. The only difference is that some countries still have their exploitation phase ahead of them.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the even bigger issues with this bill is the lack of accountability in government spending. This does nothing to tackle military spending or riders tacked on to bills that have nothing to do with the proposed spending bill. If politicians really wanted to make people happy and get things under control, it would be transparency in spending and no riders on spending bills. This is just another way to wring more…

I mean, I don't disagree that governments can spend their money in undesirable ways, but in general increasing government revenue is a good thing. Maybe this bill doesn't stop oversized military spending, but it at least puts a damper on the race to the bottom of countries offering low taxes to gigantic corporations.

Preventing that race to the bottom is not a goal in and of itself.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a trap. The money will just never go to those countries now.

"trap" in this context means "coordination trap" which is a scenario in which competition forces individual actors to adopt policies they don't want, but can't avoid. Imagine you and I are neighboring farmers who irrigate our fields from the same river. Our farms grow, as does our water use, until we're each using half the water. I buy a bigger water pump and start sucking up most of the water, leaving you with dying…

I mean, sure, and this could describe almost any resource-sharing situation ever.

I'd say that this however is not a resource sharing situation. It's a competition for the magical money tree of corporation taxes. And that's a good thing, because "setting up an environment in which businesses cannot thrive" is often a vote winner, but is a terrible idea.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#319

Next year the US will spend $715 billion on military budget alone, a $10 billion increase from last year. Shouldn't the government try to cut spending before thinking of how it could increase tax revenue? It's like an obese person wanting to lose weight while eating more each year and thinking of increasing time spent at the gym to make up for it, shouldn't they try eating less if they want to lose weight?

USA has about a 100 trillion in wealth. Spending 1% of it to insure its safety seems about right. How much would you spend ?

> Spending 1% of it to insure its safety seems about right. How much would you spend ?

Are you unironically saying the US isn't spending much on military? Most wars conducted by the US are not defending its safety. If you still believe you went to Iraq or Vietnam to protect freedom at home, then you're just too indoctrinated and there's no point debating.

> USA has about a 100 trillion in wealth.

This is not how it works, it's not spending any of the $100 trillion in wealth, it's printing money against it which arguably lowers its value. That being said, let's see what makes up the 100 trillion in wealth [1]:

"In 2018, the Fed estimates that Americans owned $114 trillion of assets, including $26 trillion of housing and real estate, $26 trillion of pensions (such as 401(k) accounts), $22 trillion of corporate stocks and mutual funds, and $6 trillion of durable goods (vehicles, appliances, furniture). Liabilities — mostly mortgages and consumer credit — totaled about $15 trillion, leaving net worth at nearly $100 trillion."

Housing and stocks is paper money, it's just valuations that could go to 0 if people actually started "spending" it as you say, ie selling it. Then there is 15% of it that is liabilities.

1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-100-trillion-que...

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#320
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gee, it's almost like taxing corporate profits twice has caused massive distortions everywhere: biggest stock price bubble, tax residency shopping, etc Tax the wealthy. Don't let them take "charitable" deductions or use tax-exempt IRAs. 100% inheritance tax above $4 million.

> Tax the wealthy. Please don't tax the wealthy. I have a couple friends who are in top 0.1%. They have enough money for the rest of their lives. If you start taking money from them, they will simply stop working and start spending more time with friends and family. The correct goal is not to take money from the rich (which can be achieved by taxing them; this is what Bolsheviks did and it resulted in millions of dea…

>The correct goal is not to take money from the rich (which can be achieved by taxing them; this is what Bolsheviks did and it resulted in millions of deaths from starvation), but to get rid of poverty.

Getting rid of poverty requires taxing money (and taxing nothing else). This doesn't have anything to do with redistribution schemes. Rather, the act of hoarding money in a 0% interest environment is regressive and makes it harder for all other participants to do the same. When everyone saves their money, it gets harder to save money because deflation will reduce your income and thus ability to save money. New money must be created to catch up with savings demand but all the demand for loans and mortgages has been saturated at this point.

The only entity that can take on further debt is the US government but it refuses all the time, forcing unconventional monetary policy at the last remaining institution that actually cares about the economy. Remember why the Fed was founded? To prevent irresponsible government spending and fight the resulting inflation. It was not created to create inflation, that's the governments job.

Just think about a simplified real economy that produces housing and food but nothing else. At some point you have more housing and food than you know what to do with and people stop building and making food leading people to quit their job but also losing their ability to buy food and housing. The village chief (the government) then decides to just build a luxurious house for himself with the help of the surplus workers because he doesn't want to see them starve.

This is an allocation problem. We expect everyone to pay for their own living expenses but we do not guarantee that they can do so. We cannot send them welfare and be done with it because the busy people building the few housing that is actually needed feel like they should also get rewarded for simply existing (more likely they get angry at the welfare recipients). Because we want everyone to work to earn money, we must create bullshit government jobs that ensure full employment.

Only when we run into scarcity of materials and full employment do we need to cut back on spending and an institution forcing the government to cut spending already exists, it's called the Federal Reserve. Wouldn't it be better if we didn't have to rely on our politicians to do the right thing and instead we have a mechanism that kicks the private sector in the balls when it is asleep? Absolutely but it would require the above mentioned "wealth tax" on bank accounts with large amounts of money. I don't care what they do with the money, heck, I don't even want them to pay the wealth tax because then the government has to come up with a way to spend the money, defeating the purpose of the wealth tax. They can buy stocks and pass the hot potato to someone else until they find somebody who actually wants to spend the money.

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