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Folk wisdom on visual programming

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Re: Folk wisdom on visual programming

#2

Post by markus_zhang »

I guess this is turning into another "visual programming" post.

On my side I'd like to ask your opinion about Blueprint. It really turned me off back in the day and I always wonder why they couldn't optimize UnrealScript further instead of getting something totally new.

Yeah for sure eventually everyone get used to it and it becomes the new standard ("How can I NOT do Blueprint? It's so splendid" type of posts will show up) because UE is an extremely competetent engine.

But why did we bring it forward in the first place? Is there enough reason to do so aside from that some teams get to have their own marks in the world and some managers can grab more power?

Re: Folk wisdom on visual programming

#3

Post by dharmab »

markus_zhang wrote: post #2

I guess this is turning into another "visual programming" post. On my side I'd like to ask your opinion about Blueprint. It really turned me off back in the day and I always wonder why they couldn't optimize UnrealScript further instead of getting something totally new. Yeah for sure eventually everyone get used to it and it becomes the new standard ("How can I NOT do Blueprint? It's so splendid" type of posts will s…

This presentation might enlighten why visual programming is in demand for gamedev. It's about a similar system developed in-house for The Division series: https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023382/AI-Behavior-Editing-an...

In short: There are many game designers and artists who prefer visual scripting tools over traditional code.

Re: Folk wisdom on visual programming

#4

Post by ping_pong »

I worked on a visual programming tool from the late 90s to the early 2000s. The same problems apply then as they do now.

There's an unwinnable war between keeping things simple and being complex-enough to do useful things. Visual stuff is great for simple things, but simple things aren't very useful. When you really need to do more complex things, you reach a limit very quickly. It becomes pretty unmaintainable very quickly and then people will "graduate" from it and go to something more convenient.

My kid is learning Scratch right now, and it's taught him a lot of great stuff. But after about a year, he's ready to move onto Python. Scratch has taught him some very valuable concepts and he was able to jump into some Python concepts with ease (others still escape him). But you can only go so far with Scratch vs other programming languages.

The same goes for other visual tools. In the end, people graduate from the visual style because it ironically becomes too complex because they want to keep things simple, and then you've lost a customer.

Re: Folk wisdom on visual programming

#5

Post by Vermeulen »

Our attempt at a Scratch-like language for our game creation app Modbox: https://docs.modboxgame.com/docs/mbscript

It's definitely allowed non-programmers to make complex AI/game state for their creations, without having to deal with syntax errors or other issues. We choose Scratch/Blocky since this would be used for more managing states/logic, rather than flowing data (where node based makes more sense)

Re: Folk wisdom on visual programming

#6

Post by markus_zhang »

dharmab wrote: post #3
markus_zhang wrote: post #2

I guess this is turning into another "visual programming" post. On my side I'd like to ask your opinion about Blueprint. It really turned me off back in the day and I always wonder why they couldn't optimize UnrealScript further instead of getting something totally new. Yeah for sure eventually everyone get used to it and it becomes the new standard ("How can I NOT do Blueprint? It's so splendid" type of posts will s…

This presentation might enlighten why visual programming is in demand for gamedev. It's about a similar system developed in-house for The Division series: https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023382/AI-Behavior-Editing-an... In short: There are many game designers and artists who prefer visual scripting tools over traditional code.

But I also see some hate this style. This guy is an artist/programmer.

https://forums.unrealengine.com/t/blueprints-are-a-toy-which...

BTW I do agree visual programming makes sense in certain area, but to use it for a general scripting language? Hell no...

Re: Folk wisdom on visual programming

#7

Post by ironmagma »

markus_zhang wrote: post #2

I guess this is turning into another "visual programming" post. On my side I'd like to ask your opinion about Blueprint. It really turned me off back in the day and I always wonder why they couldn't optimize UnrealScript further instead of getting something totally new. Yeah for sure eventually everyone get used to it and it becomes the new standard ("How can I NOT do Blueprint? It's so splendid" type of posts will s…

It’s nice for asynchronous programming. Promises or callbacks take some getting used to, but a block diagram is as transparent of an abstraction for asynchronous flow as it gets.
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