British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers • Hacker News Board

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#241

Post by magneticism » Thu, Jul 01, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

aeorgnoieang wrote: post #197

yarcob wrote: post #163

It's a pity that this law has apparently been so watered down, and basically just cements the status quo. Spares for dishwashers and washing machines are already available, and 10 years doesn't really sound that long for big appliances. I don't see whether the law addresses the problem of overpriced spares. For example, I don't see why an original Miele heating element for a washing machine costs 100€, while an unbra…

I can understand (in a very vague, general sense) why spare parts might be relatively expensive – it's probably fairly expensive to make, store, and maintain a distribution network for the parts, i.e. the price isn't just for the price of the part, but the entire system (e.g. customer support) to send it to a customer in response to their request. I'm _sure_ there's also an 'original manufacturer' premium too, and ma…

Auto manufacturers manage this quite well. Some more than others, but if you bought something like a Honda or a Toyota back in the '80s or '90s, you can still find affordable OEM parts for it today, and the manufacturer will still service things like electronics clusters.

Why not expect something similar from a much simpler and less dangerous $1-10k appliance?

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#242

Post by als0 » Thu, Jul 01, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

okennedy wrote: post #229

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, for configurations where the tpm automatically releases keys, they can be sniffed. It can be configured to only release it's secret once a correct password is given. It also rate limits I believe.

It's been a while since I looked at the technology, but the basic premise is very simple. The TPM basically keeps around a stack of hashes. The BIOS pushes a hash of the bootloader onto the stack. The bootloader pushes a hash of the kernel onto the stack. Then there's a handful of ring 0 cpu instructions for pushing and popping all but the bottom-most entries of the stack that allow the kernel to do whatever it wants…

TPM keys are protected by policies. A policy can be based on the system state (hashes), a password, or both. There are also complex policies using the Extended Authorization feature. If you don't care about platform state or configuration, then you can just set a key policy with just a password. The TPM will lock you out if you make too many incorrect guesses.

You can in fact put passwords on most TPM internal objects. See this example https://github.com/tpm2-software/tpm2-tools/blob/master/man/...

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#243

Post by kevindong » Thu, Jul 01, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #240

ShaneMcGowan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to find a good non smart tv is impossible now, I want dumb tv and dumb fridge

I don’t want to pay a premium for dumb TV though. Just like a laptop without crapware is more expensive because the crapware actually subsidizes it, a dumb TV can be more expensive. But if you pick a good (quick, without annoying UI, allows USB upgrade and offline configuration and so on) smart TV and just don’t connect it, I think that’s probably a better idea than getting a commercial monitor for example.

I bought a mid-range Vizio about two years ago. Vizio has progressively made its OS more and more laggy every few months and filled it to the brim with unblockable ads. Software updates would regularly break things for a few days/weeks at a time until the changes get rolled back.

When Apple came out with their new Apple TV, I bought one, connected that to my TV, and disconnected my TV from the internet. Now life is good since the Apple TV is buttery smooth and does not have ads.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#244

Post by onethought » Thu, Jul 01, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

bluescrn wrote: post #225

cunidev wrote: post #40

Not even mentioning the hardware bits, I have been collaborating with postmarketOS for a while now, and believe that the main thing we need to make those devices longer-lasting would be an unlockable bootloader by law. This sounds so logical (why cannot I run, by voiding the warranty, any code I want on my machine, whatever it is?), yet apparently so hard to make openly illegal, since the problem is barely acknowledg…

User-replaceable batteries by law might be a better first step. Heck, maybe even some standard sizes for mobile device batteries (and while we're at it, also EV batteries... some sort of standard 'battery module' used by most/all vehicles would hugely help reuse/repair/recycling/upgrades).

… that’s unique r&d for some companies. Why does it need to be standardised?

Apple batteries are typically much smaller than what is in androids, because their chips are less power hungry… same goes for Tesla, their cars are more efficient… so standard battery packs would harm their overall product

Don’t buy a device with a non replaceable battery if you don’t want one… why do you need the government for that?

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#245

Post by Arrath » Thu, Jul 01, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

bogwog wrote: post #157

asdff wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want a TV that actually responds quickly to button presses. With the latency you experience hitting the volume buttons or navigating menus on flat screen TVs, it feels like they haven't touched the hardware since 2002, and with the computing gains over those nearly 20 years you'd think a TV could at least turn instantly on and off like a desktop monitor by now.

You can! You just need to replace your Smart TV every couple of years to keep up with the software updates. The expensive LG TV I bought ~5 years ago was snappy and fast when I got it, but today it's extremely slow and unresponsive. That's my fault for being a bad consumer and not buying the latest model every year. On a serious note, I wonder if there's a jailbreak scene for smart TVs? It'd be awesome to be able to…

There was a really interesting article posted to HN a few months ago now, detailing a deep dive into the firmware of a new Samsung smart TV and what would be required to jailbreak it and run your own firmware.

I wonder if part 2 ever came out.

E: Ah ha!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25934286

Unfortunately, the TV proved to be quite secure it seems.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#246

Post by thysultan » Thu, Jul 01, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

Oh you mean that, yeah that's not a computer, that's an electronic heat generator.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#247

Post by samatman » Thu, Jul 01, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

bluescrn wrote: post #225

cunidev wrote: post #40

Not even mentioning the hardware bits, I have been collaborating with postmarketOS for a while now, and believe that the main thing we need to make those devices longer-lasting would be an unlockable bootloader by law. This sounds so logical (why cannot I run, by voiding the warranty, any code I want on my machine, whatever it is?), yet apparently so hard to make openly illegal, since the problem is barely acknowledg…

User-replaceable batteries by law might be a better first step. Heck, maybe even some standard sizes for mobile device batteries (and while we're at it, also EV batteries... some sort of standard 'battery module' used by most/all vehicles would hugely help reuse/repair/recycling/upgrades).

User-replaceable has nothing whatsoever to do with right to repair.

Zero, zip, nada.

A right to repair law might mandate that any device with a battery also have the battery sold, by the manufacturer, for a reasonable period of time. That gives you a practical right to repair the device by replacing the battery, and it's well-defined.

"User replaceable" is not well defined. Does it mean you need to be able to do this with no tools at all? If not, what tools make it not 'user replaceable'? That no glue is used? Solder?

My watch is literally a cell phone, and I don't welcome law which might make it bulkier or more awkward, to mollify people who want a plastic hinge to pop out their smartphone battery and swap in a new one in the field.

The battery in my smartphone (and watch!) can be replaced by the manufacturer. Right-to-repair is about making sure that the owner of a device can do things themselves or from a third party, without licensing from the manufacturer: so selling consumable parts to all comers, providing some manuals maybe. It is not about whether you have the manual dexterity or special tooling to perform the replacement! If you want to optimize around that part being very easy, buy a product where it is, like the Dragonbox Pyra.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#248

Post by fsflover » Thu, Jul 01, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #235

plainnoodles wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, TPM's are really cool from a hardware perspective. They're HSM's which can fundamentally change what threat models on your OS look like. Unfortunately, the purpose here will be to use the fact that most users use a non-free OS to turn these TPMs against the user in order to make DRM harder to break.

I've been using laptops with TPM for a decade now. Never enabled the damn thing because if it failed, I'd be completely locked out of my computer. I'm not a CIA agent, I'm not a threat to any state, I don't even work for some big corp, why do I need that level of security?

TPM does not necessarily lock you out in case of problems. It depends on the software. In Purism laptops, it just warns you if something unexpectedly changes. (see the link in my other comment)

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#249

Post by fsflover » Thu, Jul 01, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #212

Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there's a large subset of people who don't understand what TPM does, so just assume the worst and hand wave about how it [somehow] causes [random bad thing]. In this case I guess TPM causes telemetry?

Stallman[1] and others[2] wrote about TPMs nearly 15 years ago, and the former revisited the topic in 2015. Trusted Platform Modules can be used enforce app DRM, ensuring that only "approved" apps are able to run on a system. That's already the reality for iPhones and iPads. We see desktops converging on this reality with systems like Apple's M1 which won't run unsigned binaries at all, and makes it difficult to near…

TPM can be based on free software and controlled by the user: https://puri.sm/posts/purism-integrates-heads-security-firmw....

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#250

Post by heavyset_go » Thu, Jul 01, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #249

heavyset_go wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman[1] and others[2] wrote about TPMs nearly 15 years ago, and the former revisited the topic in 2015. Trusted Platform Modules can be used enforce app DRM, ensuring that only "approved" apps are able to run on a system. That's already the reality for iPhones and iPads. We see desktops converging on this reality with systems like Apple's M1 which won't run unsigned binaries at all, and makes it difficult to near…

TPM can be based on free software and controlled by the user: https://puri.sm/posts/purism-integrates-heads-security-firmw... .

Thanks for the link, I wasn't aware of Purism's work in this space.

Is an open and flashable TPM something rights holders would be comfortable with? Or would they treat it like SafetyNet treats an Android phone with an unlocked bootloader?