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Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

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Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#141

Post by helij »

twelve40 wrote: post #135
helij wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't seen any european factories did you? They are proper high-tech in comparison to your average chinese one. What people might not realise that manufacturing is still going on in Europe and US. It's just that less people are working in factories. Output is 'more' than in decades before. Automation and all that.

> less people are working i think that's kind of his point

Not in this case though as unemployment in the last decade is at its lowest in developed world.

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#142

Post by nthngtshr »

RestlessMind wrote: post #98
nthngtshr wrote: post #48

I'm in SV. What a horrible take. Globalization of tech jobs is net positive for the whole world including the US. We're all gonna have more thing made cheaper and faster, isn't that great? I can see how you can argue it's not the case with some industries, e.g steel and coal (see poverty in Appalachia), because it's hurting those communities. But this is tech, we already have it way too easy. I say let's double down…

Hahaha... for a moment, I thought you were being sarcastic. But in case you are serious, please go and study the decline of manufacturing and the plight of manufacturing workers and how their lives were ruined because of globalization. I certainly don't want that for me. I care for my own comfort first, because no one else is going to.

Hence my comment about steel and coal. I get it, globalization is not always great. But like, we're not in the same situation here. Even if it's a totally level playing field you and I will be fine. Do you really think your life is going to be ruined if you take a 30% pay cut?

Or do you think it's going to be more than 30%?

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#143

Post by nthngtshr »

ridiculous_lol wrote: post #130
nthngtshr wrote: post #48

I'm in SV. What a horrible take. Globalization of tech jobs is net positive for the whole world including the US. We're all gonna have more thing made cheaper and faster, isn't that great? I can see how you can argue it's not the case with some industries, e.g steel and coal (see poverty in Appalachia), because it's hurting those communities. But this is tech, we already have it way too easy. I say let's double down…

> What a horrible take. Globalization of tech jobs is net positive for the whole world including the US. We're all gonna have more thing made cheaper and faster, isn't that great? That will definitely hinder the progress of local companies who will miss out on good talent.

Sure, it's beneficial for some and not beneficial for others.

US employers win some

US employees lose some

Oversees employers lose some

Oversees employees win some

---

But it's going to be a net positive for the whole world because everybody else wins because they get better products and services at better prices.

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#144

Post by hangonhn »

bradlys wrote: post #137
hangonhn wrote: post #26

If someone can do what I do here in SV for half the price or less but do it just as well or even better but else where in the world, I don't feel how I'm entitled to my current salary. It's a bit hypocritical for us to bemoan this when software engineers in SV also automated people in other industries out of jobs. People outside of SV, outside of tech, and the US are people too. Don't they also deserve a chance at pr…

I’m pretty sure this mentality is what causes the constant gutting of the middle class in the US. It’s not like the income is distributed equally outside the US. It’s a cost savings. So, they’re gonna spend less and who gets to keep all the money? Exec team.

I actually don't disagree with you but I think there are some nuances that I should clarify. I'm not pro-exec nor super laissez faire, etc. but at the same time I don't think the target of our ire should be our fellow workers in other parts of the country or other countries. I don't know if unions or something else is the answer to this but trying to exclude other workers from getting opportunities seems wrong, especially when executive compensating is so high and many of us are drowning in work.

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#145

Post by polotics »

I have outsourced IT work to Moldova, Slovenia, Spain, India of course. Here is the lowdown: huge rotation of staff, the offshore team is basically a Boot-Camp for fresh grads. Then political instability and cultural surprises, most often hidden animosity between sub-groups, pops up and turn the headache factor to 11. As of now I think that any offshoring strategy that does not include a clear climate-risk mitigation plan is out of touch.

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#146

Post by mind-blight »

emodendroket wrote: post #133
mind-blight wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rhetoric may make sense when the job market is gutted, there's a much larger supply of qualified tech workers than demand, and we've reached a global maxima that forces us all into a zero sum competition for capital (think coke vs. Pepsi). That will definitely push pay down. However, that's almost the opposite of where we are now. The demand for tech workers is growing, and that greens will likely continue for d…

So they should wait until all the negative things come to pass before warning about them?

I have two takes, one the substance of your comment, and another the format it takes.

First, the substance: Of course not. It's healthy to analyze the pros and cons of any significant change to a system. We're definitely in the rose-colored-glasses part of WFH. There will absolutely be negative consequences. My main argument is that given the current supply of tech workers vs. demand for tech workers, and the likelihood of there needing to be more - not fewer - tech jobs in the future, the comment's dystopian vision is unlikely to occur any time soon. The time to start sounding alarms is when the acceleration curve for the growth of jobs vs. available workers becomes consistently negative. That's the first sign a trend is starting to reverse. We definitely aren't there, so it seems reasonable to call OP's rhetoric hyperbolic at best.

Secondly, I've noticed a trend on HN where folks post an open-ended, contradictory question in response to something that they disagree with or don't like. This implies that that parent comment is somehow flawed, but doesn't actually provide much substance in the form of concrete thoughts or opinions. It invites readers to fill in the blanks without ever challenging their (or the original author's) ideas. And it generally invites a flame war instead of a healthy dialogue or debate.

Apologies if this wasn't your intention. Given how open-ended the question is, I don't have much to work with :p. If you do have opinions about why either of my ideas are flawed, I'm definitely interested in hearing them!

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#147

Post by emodendroket »

mind-blight wrote: post #146
emodendroket wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they should wait until all the negative things come to pass before warning about them?

I have two takes, one the substance of your comment, and another the format it takes. First, the substance: Of course not. It's healthy to analyze the pros and cons of any significant change to a system. We're definitely in the rose-colored-glasses part of WFH. There will absolutely be negative consequences. My main argument is that given the current supply of tech workers vs. demand for tech workers, and the likelih…

Well, to rephrase my idea in declarative form, my concern is that by the time that trend becomes apparent, it may be too late to do anything about it. Developers have more leverage now than when they're no longer needed. Of course there isn't any real call to action being made here so maybe it doesnt matter in that sense. And full remote still does not seem to be what most employers are looking for.

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#148

Post by bradlys »

hangonhn wrote: post #144
bradlys wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m pretty sure this mentality is what causes the constant gutting of the middle class in the US. It’s not like the income is distributed equally outside the US. It’s a cost savings. So, they’re gonna spend less and who gets to keep all the money? Exec team.

I actually don't disagree with you but I think there are some nuances that I should clarify. I'm not pro-exec nor super laissez faire, etc. but at the same time I don't think the target of our ire should be our fellow workers in other parts of the country or other countries. I don't know if unions or something else is the answer to this but trying to exclude other workers from getting opportunities seems wrong, espec…

I guess I find the being “not pro-exec” etc to be contradictory to: “ If someone can do what I do here in SV for half the price or less but do it just as well or even better but else where in the world, I don't feel how I'm entitled to my current salary.” That - to me - is pro-exec talk because at the end of the day… advocating for lower wages is going to go to no one except the execs.

I don’t mind having more people in software. I DO mind when people start advocating for lower wages. There is no reason to lower the wages. We need to rise everyone together - not pull people down from the middle class in the US. (Even $400k engs in USA are still overwhelming middle class because they are wage slaves as much as anyone else is)

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#149

Post by RestlessMind »

helij wrote: post #141
twelve40 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> less people are working i think that's kind of his point

Not in this case though as unemployment in the last decade is at its lowest in developed world.

Lot of that employment is under-employment like Uber/Doordash/Instacart contractors and nowhere close to well-paying manufacturing jobs of the prior generation

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#150

Post by RestlessMind »

nthngtshr wrote: post #142
RestlessMind wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahaha... for a moment, I thought you were being sarcastic. But in case you are serious, please go and study the decline of manufacturing and the plight of manufacturing workers and how their lives were ruined because of globalization. I certainly don't want that for me. I care for my own comfort first, because no one else is going to.

Hence my comment about steel and coal. I get it, globalization is not always great. But like, we're not in the same situation here. Even if it's a totally level playing field you and I will be fine. Do you really think your life is going to be ruined if you take a 30% pay cut? Or do you think it's going to be more than 30%?

I think it will be much more than 30% based on the numbers I am seeing offered to other non-US developers who are equally good.
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