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Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

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Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#81

Imposing taxes on a legal entity always seemed fishy to me. Politically, it sounds great to say, "Make the corporations pay their share!", but who exactly are we targeting with these taxes? Is it the rich executives? Why not just raise taxes on the rich directly? I suspect in most cases the tax burden is just shifted onto the lower-income workers or the customers somehow.

Yes, I agree. I myself have always wondered about the opposite strategy: literally zero corporation tax, compensated by an overarching income-agnostic personal income tax which would go up to stupidly high percents in the stupidly high income brackets, say for the sake of the argument 80% above 1 million €/$/£, 90% above 10 million, 95% above 100 million etc. I don't necessarily mean these specific values, but you get the idea.

This income tax wouldn't care if the individual's income is salaried, or dividends, or stocks, or real estate, or whathaveyou. Any transfer of wealth from an un-taxed business to a taxable individual would count equally. Of course, the zero corporation tax would be conditional on all of a corporation's profits being distributed to individuals in states subject to the zero-corporate-hardcore-income tax agreement. I'm sure it would be extremely difficult to implement correctly, and to avoid tax avoidance schemes it would also require strong levels of capital controls with non-participant nations.

I may be a bit naïve, but intuitively I feel that erasing corporation tax altogether but highly taxing all individuals' personal profits may encourage innovation and reinvestment, and perhaps even make UBI a feasible option.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#82

This is a new kind of imperialism. The G7 makes up the rules, under the guise of fighting tax evasion or financing of terrorist activities. Then they make all the less powerful countries comply to those rules. If they do not, they get greylisted or blacklisted by some "international" watchdog, making it much harder for those countries to participate in the global economy. Of course only the poorer less influential co…

Is the whole concept of international agreements offensive to you? I don't see how this one is special. Bigger countries always have more influence, such is life.

Sovereignty goes both ways. No country is obligated to deal (allow trade or capital flows) with any other country they don't want to. If this agreement will even have such enforcement.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#83

The idea that politicians and bureaucracies can defer to external international conventions to be the bad-cop for wildly unpopular policy decisions - and then claim to be powerless to stop them - is anathema to democratic principles like national representation, consent of the governed, and other concepts of human rights. This proposal seems like a global group of government affiliated people colluding to fleece each…

>The idea that politicians and bureaucracies can defer to external international conventions to be the bad-cop for wildly unpopular policy decisions

It's as though so many people saw Brexit and completely refused to learn anything from it. In the UK prior to Brexit the EU was often the scapegoat for things that politicians wanted but knew they couldn't get popular support for, the classic example is how the unpopular (and ultimately abortive) attempt to switch the UK fully to the metric system was very much seen as "petty-minded EU bureaucrats getting one over on the British public" in the tabloids when the reality was that almost all of the effort was Westminster's doing, mostly because business interests had been calling for it as a way to ease international trade.

The problem is that while falsely blaming an external outgroup for your problems isn't immediately dangerous, it can quickly spiral out of control. Around 2013 blaming the EU for bad policy-making on a wide range of things like immigration, the refugee crisis, a percieved decline in law and order, a creeping sense of political control over public discussion, and a whole list of other things reached its peak and the referendum was basically wrenched out of Cameron's hand. Eventually if you subvert a democracy by blaming your own unpopular choices on an outgroup, the inevitable question people start asking is "why don't we just get rid of $outgroup then? As you say, $outgroup cause all our problems so let's get rid of them and solve all our problems at once" which many billions of pounds and geopolitical bridges burned later is exactly what happened.

If nations as you put it "defer to external international conventions to be the bad-cop for wildly unpopular policy decisions" then things like Brexit are the inevitable result. Not only is it inherently wrong to sidestep democracy like that in my opinion, if supranational organisations are blamed for things that are unpopular then their influence will eventually be damaged by this. Organisations like the EU, the UN, and others aren't just limitless negativity sinks for domestic politics - all that political negativity has to go somewhere and eventually it just spills out.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#84
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what sense is it good that a company can make profit through a business activity in some country, but instead of paying the tax there, it pays it somewhere else?

It minimizes the amount of taxes paid overall, which weakens the state.

[deleted]

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#85
post #29

When the benefits of creating a new country outweigh the costs (to shareholders), does it fall within the fiduciary duty of corporate leaders to form a new country?

How many days until I'm a tax-paying citizen of Amazon.com Inc.?

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#86

Imposing taxes on a legal entity always seemed fishy to me. Politically, it sounds great to say, "Make the corporations pay their share!", but who exactly are we targeting with these taxes? Is it the rich executives? Why not just raise taxes on the rich directly? I suspect in most cases the tax burden is just shifted onto the lower-income workers or the customers somehow.

It's basically the shareholders that pay this tax - the corporate tax being described here only on applies to the profits, so salaries for example would be counted as an expense and not included in that.

There's also not a lot of reason for this to be passed on to the consumer - if raising prices would let the company make more profit, it would make sense for them to do that anyway regardless of the specific tax rate they pay on those profits.

As for taxing the shareholders directly, they of course do do that in addition to the corporate tax. One way the corporate tax is a little bit different is that it's paid before income is distributed to the shareholders, so if a company accumulates a huge cash balance but doesn't do any share buybacks / dividends, it will still pay the corporate tax even though the shareholders won't pay any tax (unless the company starts distributing the profits).

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#87

The idea that politicians and bureaucracies can defer to external international conventions to be the bad-cop for wildly unpopular policy decisions - and then claim to be powerless to stop them - is anathema to democratic principles like national representation, consent of the governed, and other concepts of human rights. This proposal seems like a global group of government affiliated people colluding to fleece each…

I think you're misunderstanding the concept here, this has nothing to do with dodging responsibility for unpopular policies. If you think countries shouldn't tax corporate profits at all, great, but that's a separate discussion; this is predicated on the assumption that all countries desire a non-zero corporate tax, and just need a way to get there.

The point of this measure is to avoid a coordination trap that leads to corp tax rates converging on zero even though each country does not want that. Such scenarios are well studied, and a mutually agreed upon enforcement mechanism is the optimal solution. If that resembles a conspiracy theory to someone, well, hopefully they can read the wikipedia page on the Prisoners' Dilemma and learn something new.

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#88
post #59

“For decades, the United States has participated in a self-defeating international tax competition, lowering our corporate tax rates only to watch other nations lower theirs in response. The result was a global race to the bottom: Who could lower their corporate rate further and faster? No nation has won this race,” Translation, "We want to have these corporations in our country so badly that we keep paying more and…

Isn't it a consensus position among economists that corporate taxation is inefficient and badly targeted? That taxes on individuals (wages, goods&services, capital gains) and on land are easier to collect and better at providing desired incentives? Really, isn't a "race to the bottom" a virtuous cycle here? Kinda weird to see Yellen -- Treasury Secretary and former Fed Chair -- making this kind of statement.

When the majority of wealth is held by billionaire corporate owners, and the only tax they pay is corporate tax, not even selling their shares, what other option do you have to tax them?

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#89
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what sense is it good that a company can make profit through a business activity in some country, but instead of paying the tax there, it pays it somewhere else?

It minimizes the amount of taxes paid overall, which weakens the state.

this is a benefit only international corporations get to enjoy, which gives them an unfair advantage in the market.

if your goal is to have a few conglomerates rule the world, then this is a good way to do it. Not sure how that is much different from a powerful "state" though

Re: Global minimum corporate tax: 130 nations to support U.S. proposal

#90

The idea that politicians and bureaucracies can defer to external international conventions to be the bad-cop for wildly unpopular policy decisions - and then claim to be powerless to stop them - is anathema to democratic principles like national representation, consent of the governed, and other concepts of human rights. This proposal seems like a global group of government affiliated people colluding to fleece each…

While it may be a cowardly way to divert responsibility I don't agree that this is so bad. This problem can only be solved by cooperating, otherwise companies can just shop around for the cheapest taxation rate.

Gee, it's almost like taxing corporate profits twice has caused massive distortions everywhere: biggest stock price bubble, tax residency shopping, etc

Tax the wealthy. Don't let them take "charitable" deductions or use tax-exempt IRAs. 100% inheritance tax above $4 million.

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