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British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

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Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#191
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to find a good non smart tv is impossible now, I want dumb tv and dumb fridge

I don't own a smart TV, so this question is probably a bit naive - but what happens if you don't connect your smart TV to the internet?

Some (Sony) pop up random nag screens in the middle of the movie or show you're watching. Even if that show is being streamed on a different smart device or you are watching OTA TV where internet is completely unnecessary.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#192
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't do that because someone (probably not you) will then unlock the phone and [insert something evil here - perhaps involving the radio]

Android phones triggers wipe on unlock. So use unlock bootloader to stole data simply don't work. Besides that, some phone will add a unremovble giant red exclamation mark on boot screen to notate the phone being unlocked to warn you `the phone is already unlocked, don't trust it unless it is done by you.`

People start their phones rarely.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#193
post #46
post #40

Not even mentioning the hardware bits, I have been collaborating with postmarketOS for a while now, and believe that the main thing we need to make those devices longer-lasting would be an unlockable bootloader by law. This sounds so logical (why cannot I run, by voiding the warranty, any code I want on my machine, whatever it is?), yet apparently so hard to make openly illegal, since the problem is barely acknowledg…

You can't do that because someone (probably not you) will then unlock the phone and [insert something evil here - perhaps involving the radio]

The radio firmware is something that is at another level. Even if you end up unlocking the bootloader, that doesn't give you access to the radio firmware, that is proprietary and needs to be signed, and cannot be modified. It's basically seen by the OS as a modem to which they talk trough AT commands (yes, they are still in use), the same thing that you would obtain by plugging in an USB modem to a normal PC.

For Wi-Fi you can tweak the driver, if you want. But you can do the same with a network card that you buy for a couple of dollars so what's the point? Transmitting on the 2.4Ghz is something everyone can do if he wants.

It's nonsense what you said. There nothing evil you can do by unlocking a phone. In Android an unlock triggers a factory reset, that will prevent accessing people personal data (and it's not really necessary if you have disk encryption, that every modern phone has as a default), so the concern of accessing people data doesn't exist.

The concern about: but then a criminal can steal your phone and use it. Yes, there is. We can require to unlock the phone requesting a code from a website of the manufacturer so they can prove that you bought the phone, as some manufacturers do. But in reality, does it make sense? You can nowaday get a phone that is more powerful than the PC that I used 5 years ago for 200$, I mean 8 core CPU, 8Gb of RAM, 256Gb internal flash, in the following years the price will probably go even lower. Should I care? They only thing that I care is that whoever stoles the phone cannot access my personal data, and this is achieved by the disk encryption, everything else to me is useless, I would just buy another phone, but in reality is more probable that I will loose or break my phone that someone steals it.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to find a good non smart tv is impossible now, I want dumb tv and dumb fridge

TV manufacturers are responding, often clumsily and based on their self-interest (data collection), to what consumers want. Trying to find a dumb TV is like trying to find a car without a built in radio. You're welcome to leave it switched off. Smart TVs are dumb if they aren't connected to the internet. Some may be slow. Some may have a poor interface. I'd worry about solving for that rather than expecting manufactu…

> You're welcome to leave it switched off.

Funny you should say that. My car defaults back to radio on when you start it.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#195
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A TPM is just a bit of memory that is "hacker proof" so you can store a private key with a guarantee that it can't leak out. You can then sign, encrypt, or decrypt using the key. They were controversial because it was originally thought they would be used to lock parts of your computer away from you, being used to do DRM and the like. At the end of the day the chips were hard to use, slow, and flaky enough that it di…

A TPM is much more than "just a bit of memory". It is a cryptographic coprocessor, with its own microcode and its own security domain. And I don't think a fully-secured future for PC's is as impossible as you think. The primary reason this is impossible right now is because TPM's aren't ubiquitous (none of my machines came with one installed). That problem will be solved by Windows 11.

Secured for the benefit of Microsoft or DRM providers, not necessarily for the benefit of the end user.

Unless they're willing to allow the end user to override the wishes of the vendor (and without any diminished functionality), TPM is just another way to turn computers into appliances.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#196
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The radio is a completely separate sub system that is not affected by unlocking the boot loader of the main computer.

That's not always true. If it's possible to shave pennies off the BOM by having the radio driven by, or sharing memory with, the main CPU -- and it is possible -- there will be phones in the wild with that configuration.

Yes the radio can be on the same physical chip, but still they are two different systems. Unlocking the bootloader you get the ability to run an unsigned kernel on the main CPU, but still it doesn't give you access to the radio part, that has a completely different firmware (stored on a partition of the same flash memory, yes, but you see it as a black box) that is signed and checked and you cannot modify it. See it as the microcode of the CPU, something that is loaded at boot time but you cannot alter, patch, or even see what it does.

The kernel can only talk to the modem trough AT commands, the same commands that you would use with a 4G USB modem that you plug into any computer. The fact that are physically on the same SOC doesn't implicate nothing in terms of security.

In fact there are no security implication on unlocking a bootloader, if there were, well we would be in trouble since it's a relatively easy operation, that in most cases it's a matter of running a command from a CLI tool, and the only drawback is voiding the warranty.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#197
post #163

It's a pity that this law has apparently been so watered down, and basically just cements the status quo. Spares for dishwashers and washing machines are already available, and 10 years doesn't really sound that long for big appliances. I don't see whether the law addresses the problem of overpriced spares. For example, I don't see why an original Miele heating element for a washing machine costs 100€, while an unbra…

I can understand (in a very vague, general sense) why spare parts might be relatively expensive – it's probably fairly expensive to make, store, and maintain a distribution network for the parts, i.e. the price isn't just for the price of the part, but the entire system (e.g. customer support) to send it to a customer in response to their request. I'm _sure_ there's also an 'original manufacturer' premium too, and maybe that _is_ in fact most of the difference compared to 'unbranded compatible' parts.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#198

Well, smartphones must be updated to include better spyware. And newer computers are also better locked down to allow better surveillance. So, the older ones can't break down fast enough! You don't want a repairable computer so creeps install, like, a Linux distro. You want disposable TPM machines with Windows 11 Home Edition and unstoppable "telemetry".

To be fair, TPM's are really cool from a hardware perspective. They're HSM's which can fundamentally change what threat models on your OS look like. Unfortunately, the purpose here will be to use the fact that most users use a non-free OS to turn these TPMs against the user in order to make DRM harder to break.

I don't trust storing keys in the hardware. The hardware can fail and you loose everything, or the hardware can have backdoor. It's not difficult to make and memorize a strong password in the end to use it for disk encryption.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#199
post #103
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TPM used for secure boot, (hypothetically) used to block installing non-windows OS, means the owner is forced to using an OS that has telemetry. That is the argument I suppose OP was making. The secure boot locking is hypothetical, but it is often feared. I get why, because it seems like something Microsoft would love to do.

TPM is used for measured boot, to not release a secret/operate on a key if measurements do not match. It doesn't block you from running anything.

Dang your right.

I figured the TPM was part of secure-boot validation. But given some extra thought, it is clear that verifying a signature does not require any secrets.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#200
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Windows 10 Pro just got updated to Windows 11 for free via an update and I have no TPM module.

Windows 11 previews do not require a TPM module, but the final Windows 11 will. Quoting from https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/06/28/update-... : > In support of the Windows 11 system requirements, we’ve set the bar for previewing in our Windows Insider Program to match the minimum system requirements for Windows 11, with the exception for TPM 2.0 and CPU family/model.

So I can install Windows 11 previews, then when the definitive version comes out I would need to downgrade if I don't have a TPM hardware (or if I don't want to enable it for not loosing the possibility to dual boot Linux)? It's nonsense.

I want the old Windows back, couldn't Microsoft just stop making OS and support Windows 7 forever? The last Windows version that just worked, buy a license and use it, no updates every 6 months, no requirement for secure boot, TPM and stupid stuff, no apps, or whatever other stupid thin they invented.

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