Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

9to5mac.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 377 posts

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#71

Post by gravstar »

Someone1234 wrote: post #38
emouryto wrote: post #16

Well, smartphones must be updated to include better spyware. And newer computers are also better locked down to allow better surveillance. So, the older ones can't break down fast enough! You don't want a repairable computer so creeps install, like, a Linux distro. You want disposable TPM machines with Windows 11 Home Edition and unstoppable "telemetry".

I feel like there's a large subset of people who don't understand what TPM does, so just assume the worst and hand wave about how it [somehow] causes [random bad thing]. In this case I guess TPM causes telemetry?

Lol I think MOST people don't understand what TPM is/does...

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#72

Post by nerdawson »

fsflover wrote: post #54
nerdawson wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TV manufacturers are responding, often clumsily and based on their self-interest (data collection), to what consumers want. Trying to find a dumb TV is like trying to find a car without a built in radio. You're welcome to leave it switched off. Smart TVs are dumb if they aren't connected to the internet. Some may be slow. Some may have a poor interface. I'd worry about solving for that rather than expecting manufactu…

> Smart TVs are dumb if they aren't connected to the internet. Unless they find an open WiFi network.

Automatically connecting to an open WiFi network without being instructed to do so seems reckless to say the least.

Are you aware of any TVs that are doing that?

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#73

Post by bluGill »

jolmg wrote: post #50
bluGill wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't do that because someone (probably not you) will then unlock the phone and [insert something evil here - perhaps involving the radio]

Are you missing an /s or are you saying that it shouldn't be done because it would enable e.g. use of radio hardware that goes against radio regulation? If you're really expressing concern, what do you think of e.g. modem modules for regular computers or SDR hardware?

> Are you missing an /s or are you saying that it shouldn't be done because it would enable e.g. use of radio hardware that goes against radio regulation

Great question. I'm intentionally not answering it because I am not sure what I think. There are valid points on both sides. In part what I think depends on how evil evil people get.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#74

Post by roody15 »

Building a surveillance state.

Want direct data devices locked down and proprietary (TPM and apple T2).

Want devices directly tied to the user. Want to prevent “hacks” that detect snooping or other low level background “proprietary” services that may be running.

My two cents. We are rushing to emulate china.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#75

Post by pbhjpbhj »

tuukkah wrote: post #13
hprotagonist wrote: post #6

translation: this "right to repair" law appears to exclude everything you'd actually want the right to repair. Rather a lot of the right to repair fight in the US comes down to ECUs and data formats and readers for things like OBD ports on vehicles, or firmware for your farm equipment, or lots of other things that certainly have computers in them.

Here, a computer might be interpreted as a laptop or a desktop, not an embedded system "with a computer in them". Anyway, the list is very short and exclusive (for now?): "For now, the right to repair laws only cover: Dishwashers; Washing machines and washer-dryers; Refrigeration appliances; Televisions and other electronic displays"

IME washing machines, dishwashers, washer-dryers all have relatively good repairability and good parts availability already (fridges too, though I've less experience of that). You even see them being scored on repairability or repair costs.

Have they addressed a problem that is largely absent?

It's hard to choose to repair when a secondhand replacement is as cheap though. Replaced a plastic pipe, and a hose on my dishwasher, delivered cost ~£50; same as a newer secondhand dishwasher. But at least I've kept it out of the waste stream for a couple more years.

Source: fixed all the white goods in my house several times over. I don't have anything recent though, so more recent products might be worse. There is a lot of part reuse, which is good.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#76

Post by meowface »

jandrese wrote: post #66
Aeolun wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no, don’t mistake correlation with causation. They just always come together. Note: I have no idea what TPM even is.

A TPM is just a bit of memory that is "hacker proof" so you can store a private key with a guarantee that it can't leak out. You can then sign, encrypt, or decrypt using the key. They were controversial because it was originally thought they would be used to lock parts of your computer away from you, being used to do DRM and the like. At the end of the day the chips were hard to use, slow, and flaky enough that it di…

I know it's super easy for anyone to Google, but I feel like at least one reader will find this useful since I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the discussion thread: TPM stands for Trusted Platform Module.

("TPM is an international standard for a secure cryptoprocessor, a dedicated microcontroller designed to secure hardware through integrated cryptographic keys." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module)

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#77

Post by Silhouette »

fsflover wrote: post #54
nerdawson wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TV manufacturers are responding, often clumsily and based on their self-interest (data collection), to what consumers want. Trying to find a dumb TV is like trying to find a car without a built in radio. You're welcome to leave it switched off. Smart TVs are dumb if they aren't connected to the internet. Some may be slow. Some may have a poor interface. I'd worry about solving for that rather than expecting manufactu…

> Smart TVs are dumb if they aren't connected to the internet. Unless they find an open WiFi network.

Someone says this every time smart TVs get discussed, but has anyone ever cited a verifiable case of it actually being done, noting that it would clearly be illegal to do it in much of the world?

Now, if we're talking about the danger of devices incorporating their own wireless communications and phoning home on a network of their manufacturer's own choosing without the knowledge or consent of the owner, that is a serious risk, and one that IMHO should be mitigated by regulating it out of existence before it has any chance to become established practice.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#78

Post by handrous »

nerdawson wrote: post #47
ShaneMcGowan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to find a good non smart tv is impossible now, I want dumb tv and dumb fridge

TV manufacturers are responding, often clumsily and based on their self-interest (data collection), to what consumers want. Trying to find a dumb TV is like trying to find a car without a built in radio. You're welcome to leave it switched off. Smart TVs are dumb if they aren't connected to the internet. Some may be slow. Some may have a poor interface. I'd worry about solving for that rather than expecting manufactu…

Part of it might be that consumers want smart TVs, but it's definitely the case that consumers are very price-sensitive when it comes to TVs, and that selling ad space (and selling/leveraging data gained by stalking your users—why this shit is legal is beyond me) on an integrated OS lets you sell at, or even under, the cost to deliver the hardware, and remain profitable.

This is also why it's really, really hard to build a Roku competitor starting from 0, without a lot of starting capital. You won't be able to match them on price, and also won't yet have the scale to subsidize your own devices with ad sales, so you'll need to sell at a loss (remember: you also need to get onto shelves in stores to compete, and they'll have harsh price requirements, calibrated by what your ad- and spyware-subsidized competitors are selling for, if you want shelf-space with an unknown brand) for quite a while.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#79

Post by theHIDninja »

jrkfkgmfmr wrote: post #29

I don't want a right to repair if that means a bulky phone/laptop with terrible water sealing. Typing from a 4 year old non-repairable phone (Samsung S8). If you want a repairable phone, good, but don't take away my choice of slim water resistant phones. Get off my lawn HNers keep on complaining about big screens, non removable batteries, and lack of headphone ports, but nobody cares because people actually want thos…

You will still have a removable backplate on your hermetically sealed phone. All Right to Repair means is that companies will be unable to enter part exclusivity deals with manufacturers.

Re: British right to repair law excludes smartphones and computers

#80

Post by jolmg »

bluGill wrote: post #73
jolmg wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you missing an /s or are you saying that it shouldn't be done because it would enable e.g. use of radio hardware that goes against radio regulation? If you're really expressing concern, what do you think of e.g. modem modules for regular computers or SDR hardware?

> Are you missing an /s or are you saying that it shouldn't be done because it would enable e.g. use of radio hardware that goes against radio regulation Great question. I'm intentionally not answering it because I am not sure what I think. There are valid points on both sides. In part what I think depends on how evil evil people get.

AFAIK, anything phones can do on a hardware level can be done on more open platforms. What could unlocking phones enable evil people to do? What's one of these valid points of the other side?
Post reply on HN