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Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

news.mit.edu

21–30 of 73 posts

Re: Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, black holes shrink because of Hawking radiation, but in reality this doesn't really happen because black holes are much colder than their surrounding space. Actually they are the coldest objects in nature. Stellar black holes have a temperature of a few Nanokelvins and the average temperature of space is 2.7 K so there's a net gain of energy/mass from absorbed photons from CMB radiation vs emitted photons via Ha…

From the outside they must look cold since they can't radiate heat any more than light. That doesnt imply anything about the inside.

The inside is empty space.

Re: Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

#22
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a pity about the reporting. But it is a fascinating area of research. I never expected that we could measure gravitational waves in our life time.

I'm amazed - to the point of skepticism - that with such minute forces they can extrapolate so much information and prove theories. I mean I'm no astrophysicist, I like the "pop sci" bits, but when I look closer I'm seeing a lot of small numbers and statistics that imply something - e.g. exoplanets based on minute wobbles and brightness variations, water on said exoplanets based on spectrography. It's theories based…

> e.g. exoplanets based on minute wobbles and brightness variations, water on said exoplanets based on spectrography.

The minute wobbles may be tiny, but they can plot a curve of those wobbles and see very clearly that it changes in a certain way that can only be caused by a planet (or something spherical and with a certain mass). If there was a competing theory of how you can get this exact curve in some other way, I am sure we would consider them as alternative possibilities and not be able to tell them apart, but as far as I know, there isn't any competing theories at all... so we can have very high confidence there's a planet there.

Regarding water detection: yeah, spectrography is just mind blowing, but again, given what we know, there's just nothing that could justify believing that when you detect radiation that fit exactly what you would expect from water molecules, that it could be something else instead... unless you come up with a convincing "something else", your only option is to conclude that the detection is accurate, otherwise you would need to stay open to the possibility of absolutely everything possibly having alternative explanations we haven't thought of yet (though every now and then, that indeed can happen and we need to adjust all our theories that are based on the changed body of knowledge), and progress would not be possible in any area (you need to accept something before you can build on top of it).

Re: Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, black holes shrink because of Hawking radiation, but in reality this doesn't really happen because black holes are much colder than their surrounding space. Actually they are the coldest objects in nature. Stellar black holes have a temperature of a few Nanokelvins and the average temperature of space is 2.7 K so there's a net gain of energy/mass from absorbed photons from CMB radiation vs emitted photons via Ha…

From the outside they must look cold since they can't radiate heat any more than light. That doesnt imply anything about the inside.

What's "inside" of a black hole, meaning behind the event horizon is forever causally cut off from our universe. The Hawking radiation comes from the space around the event horizon. In theory black holes can become very hot if their mass is small. This happens at the end of their life which is in the order of 10^80 years for stellar black holes.

Here is a calculator to play with some values. https://www.vttoth.com/CMS/physics-notes/311-hawking-radiati...

Re: Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

#24
post #16

Anyone can think of any practical effect this might have or is this something that at the moment seems to have only scientific relevance.

Well, if the result had turned out the other way, we might have seen some practical effects, because it would overturn some well-established theories that we also use for predicting more practical things.

I’m waiting for a Greg Egan short story to explain this better.

Re: Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

#25
post #3

Alright, I'm confused. How does this square with Hawking radiation? How can a black hole shrink without shrinking? The article mentions both in the context that they are reconciled but not how they are reconciled.

Yes, black holes shrink because of Hawking radiation, but in reality this doesn't really happen because black holes are much colder than their surrounding space. Actually they are the coldest objects in nature. Stellar black holes have a temperature of a few Nanokelvins and the average temperature of space is 2.7 K so there's a net gain of energy/mass from absorbed photons from CMB radiation vs emitted photons via Ha…

how can the temperature of a black hole make sense? Is it the temperature of the singularity point? Is it the temperature of the space inside the event horizon (but it can't be, as that space is empty)?

Re: Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, black holes shrink because of Hawking radiation, but in reality this doesn't really happen because black holes are much colder than their surrounding space. Actually they are the coldest objects in nature. Stellar black holes have a temperature of a few Nanokelvins and the average temperature of space is 2.7 K so there's a net gain of energy/mass from absorbed photons from CMB radiation vs emitted photons via Ha…

how can the temperature of a black hole make sense? Is it the temperature of the singularity point? Is it the temperature of the space inside the event horizon (but it can't be, as that space is empty)?

"Temperature" in this case refers to the amount of energy they emit due to hawking radiation.

By comparing to a black-body curve, you can define a temperature for the hole. Obviously it's not a real object with a real temperature -- if it were, I believe the temperature might be infinite -- but this still works for the purposes of deciding whether it'll grow or shrink.

Re: Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, black holes shrink because of Hawking radiation, but in reality this doesn't really happen because black holes are much colder than their surrounding space. Actually they are the coldest objects in nature. Stellar black holes have a temperature of a few Nanokelvins and the average temperature of space is 2.7 K so there's a net gain of energy/mass from absorbed photons from CMB radiation vs emitted photons via Ha…

how can the temperature of a black hole make sense? Is it the temperature of the singularity point? Is it the temperature of the space inside the event horizon (but it can't be, as that space is empty)?

My understanding is it's the temperature of the event horizon: because it doesn't emit any blackbody radiation, other than the tiny amount from Hawking radiation, any heat measurement from it would be approximately 0k.

Re: Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

#28
Note that by the time black hole evaporation would be significant the CMB will be long gone because of dark energy (universe expanding). All this means that evaporation is delayed till there is nothing else left apart from black holes (because of the faster than light recession of space itself).

Re: Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

#29
post #3

Alright, I'm confused. How does this square with Hawking radiation? How can a black hole shrink without shrinking? The article mentions both in the context that they are reconciled but not how they are reconciled.

Yes, black holes shrink because of Hawking radiation, but in reality this doesn't really happen because black holes are much colder than their surrounding space. Actually they are the coldest objects in nature. Stellar black holes have a temperature of a few Nanokelvins and the average temperature of space is 2.7 K so there's a net gain of energy/mass from absorbed photons from CMB radiation vs emitted photons via Ha…

It _will_ happen, but first dark energy needs to be strong enough to expand the universe fast enough (faster than light) so that CMB wouldn't be able to reach anything.

Re: Physicists observationally confirm Hawking’s black hole theorem for first time

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, black holes shrink because of Hawking radiation, but in reality this doesn't really happen because black holes are much colder than their surrounding space. Actually they are the coldest objects in nature. Stellar black holes have a temperature of a few Nanokelvins and the average temperature of space is 2.7 K so there's a net gain of energy/mass from absorbed photons from CMB radiation vs emitted photons via Ha…

how can the temperature of a black hole make sense? Is it the temperature of the singularity point? Is it the temperature of the space inside the event horizon (but it can't be, as that space is empty)?

Temperature has several definitions that produce the same number under normal circumstances but may or may not be applicable in extreme circumstances. In this case, I imagine they could be using the thermodynamic definition (dE/dS, the marginal change in energy per marginal change in entropy - I’m not sure if a BH has well-defined entropy) or something to do with the emission curve of space around the black hole. I vaguely recall something about empty space behaving like a blackbody under a gravitational gradient, so maybe they can use that. You could also use amount of Hawking radiation per surface area. It’s possible that some of those produce the same number.
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