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‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

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Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#131

Post by MarkPNeyer »

brandmeyer wrote: post #115
philote wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before the pandemic FANGs seemed to want everyone in the office as much as possible. That's why they have their own cafeterias/restaurants, daycare, workout rooms, etc. They wanted employees in the office, working a minimum of 40 hours a week. I'm guessing even though remote work is going fine for now, they're concerned they're not going to be able to keep getting over 40 hours of week out of employees. (This is conj…

> (This is conjecture on my part, I have no idea how many hours FANG employees tend to work). Then don't conjecture. Speculation doesn't add to the conversation. In the absence of evidence, it just spreads a misinformation virus.

> . Speculation doesn't add to the conversation. In the absence of evidence

This is an interesting claim. Do you have evidence for it?

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#132

Post by iandanforth »

Mozilla serves as an interesting example here. They are very much a Silicon Valley company and have a ton of that same energy. Even before the pandemic they had a globally distributed workforce and so had to develop processes that brought people together. Twice a year, for example, they had a company all-hands event to bring everyone to the same place. Usually somewhere fun. Now they aren't a large company by any means but if the 'culture' you're worried about preserving is a group of fun-loving, hard-working, highly talented and motivated engineers committed to a goal that's ultimately beneficial for the world then Mozilla is a pretty damn good example that distributed can work.

Now, due to both economics and the pandemic Moz had shut offices and even more people are fully remote. We'll have to see if that crosses some previously hidden tipping point where the culture is eroded because the MV office doesn't exist, but I suspect not. It's the mission, people, and processes which make it a great place to work.*

* My knowledge is second hand, I don't work for Mozilla or speak for them.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#133

Post by glitchc »

CPLX wrote: post #21
dcolkitt wrote: post #15

I’m honestly perplexed what the FANGs are even thinking in being so aggressive about pushing an end to WFH. Sure it could all work out fine for them. Maybe employees will grumble for a bit, then settle back into office life. But maybe it wont’t . There’s a very real possibility that you lose a non-negligible percent of your staff (disproportionately the most talented who have other options), handicap your ability to…

> For companies who’s entire value is the intangible human capital of their workforce Yeah no. The core value of these companies is the fact that they’ve managed to establish a monopolistic position within an important high-margin market segment and now find themselves stewards of a massive money printing machine. Yes, eventually, without a competent workforce they’ll start to face threats and crisis, but I think you…

Reminds me of Research in Motion.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#134

Post by throwaway743 »

lkrubner wrote: post #41
dcolkitt wrote: post #15

I’m honestly perplexed what the FANGs are even thinking in being so aggressive about pushing an end to WFH. Sure it could all work out fine for them. Maybe employees will grumble for a bit, then settle back into office life. But maybe it wont’t . There’s a very real possibility that you lose a non-negligible percent of your staff (disproportionately the most talented who have other options), handicap your ability to…

"destroy morale for the remaining" This depends on how you define morale. Morale can be thought of as the willingness of people to make difficult sacrifices to maintain community ties, in the sense offered by the essay "Why Strict Churches Are Strong": https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/230409?jou... . In that essay, they make the point that there are no freeloaders in a strict church, and that is what…

I mean, your examples of organizations are homogeneous in their nature, and borderline cult level communal. Unless you're in management or one of those workers who's an over zealous corporate kool-aid drinking yes-man who screams about company culture and has substituted any outside social life with the office and coworkers, these examples might be extreme and irrelevant.

We're all slowly dying, and personally, I value having more control over what little time I have left alive while getting done what needs to get done to make a living, and do it right without being tied down, more or less against my will, to any office.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#135

Post by bluGill »

phreeza wrote: post #110
sumtechguy wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What many miss is also these large companies are doing something very interesting in the labor market. They are starving the competition. They spend a bit extra on labor but they get a long term benefit of lower number of effective competitors. MS did this for years in the 90s. Apple/Atari/Sony/IBM did it in the 80s. Being in office ('free lunch', perks, etc) is part of that lock in. If people are at home then they a…

I agree with the first part, not so sure about the conclusion though. What makes you think that WFH increases attrition? The FAANGs could easily spend some additional dollars to make "their" WFH more attractive than the competitions, similar to what they did with offices.

Depends a lot. WFH when most companies won't allow it is a perk that will keep people around. However once WFH is a common thing it is much easier to switch. If you WFH you can work anywhere in the country (in theory world, but there are tricky issues there that I don't know much about) which means you can switch from a job in the Bay to NYC with no problem, then jump to the one job in some tiny village in Montana - all without leaving your family.

Family is the key above. I moved to a different state from my family and I often feel the loss. It is now a big deal to go visit. I can't "call in a few favors" when I need my house painted (I'm also not called upon to help). Once you don't live near friends/family moving is just about the relocation package. Once you have friends and family around it is personally hard to move as you throw all of that away. By WFH you can ignore all that and live where it works best for your life.

Now yes FAANG can give me a bit extra money if they want. However I've reached the point where money isn't my only motivation. I want interesting/fulfilling work, which if I decide they don't offer they can't really change the offer to give me.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#136

Post by selfhoster11 »

TheCanuckster wrote: post #91
ProjectBarks wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the exact sentiment I hold as well. I think the demographics of hacker news may be slightly swayed towards people who already have established networks and industry experience.

If this is the case, what are the forums people with less established networks and industry experience use? It would seem prudent to be aware of these other "HNs".

Reddit would be my guess.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#137

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

> 92% are even willing to switch industries to find the right position

I'm increasingly convinced people not switching industries is a huge barrier towards equity in the job market. If another industry/location treats workers much better, but the cost of switching is too high, then the industries/locations aren't really competing for your labor. Competitive labor markets seem to be table stakes for fair work.

COVID just lowered the cost of switching, so I'm hoping the built up differences can finally equalize.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#138

Post by thebean11 »

nly wrote: post #92
cableshaft wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Allowing employees to apply to be permanent remote employees We'll see how this plays out, but I'm expecting this to be just a ploy to keep people from leaving right away and 95%+ requests to be remote will ultimately be denied.

The 2 day WFH thing will fade away as well. My company has put those optional 2 days WFH to TLs to arrange amongst their teams, with the expectation that the whole team will have the same schedule. Basically if your TL doesn't care or want you to WFH, or the team can't agree on days, you're done. It'll be a major inconvenience and staff will ultimately not see the benefits of full WFH with 3, so it won't last. I thin…

As someone who's company is doing exactly that (albeit with only 1 day per week) I can't see that happening here.

Agreeing on a day between 6 people isn't that hard (disagreement can just be solved by the TL making the decision) and once the policy exists it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle.

Forcing everyone to come in seems like a huge political blunder for a TL, why would they do that?

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#139

Post by bluGill »

Bishizel wrote: post #88
pjc50 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "hybrid" return to office policies where employees have to live within 100 miles of the office and be able to come in 1 day a week or 1 day a month depending on team. This is where I suspect a lot of places are going to end up in the medium term. I'm not back to the office in the first place, and I'm aware that I have a nice office and moderate commute, but I still want some wfh time, as well as some time seeing my…

The problem is that the req to live within 100mi doesn’t allow workers to fully engage in location arbitrage in the way the workers would like. I think most people want a better work/life balance, which is what all this ultimately represents. I imagine the eventual long term settle is somewhere more in the “wfh, but with team gatherings for a few days once a month” in a lot of industries.

There is one exception to your location arbitrage: those who want a hobby farm. if you need to go to the office every day your hobby farm will be close to the city. If you only go in once a week a 1.5 hour drive doesn't sound so bad and you can move farther out meaning more land for the same number of people who want a horse or whatever.

This is only a tiny subset of people though, and is more the exception that proves the rule.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#140

Post by al2o3cr »

ziggus wrote: post #38

Fine, you want to WFH? Awesome, expect a pay cut. Part of a modern white-collar salary has some expectations built into it, like the fact that people need to be compensated for the inconveniences of leaving their homes and coming to the office and therefore having to pay for things like childcare, cars, clothing, parking, etc. Don't have those expenses anymore? Then why should I compensate you the same as if you did?…

    Why should I pay you more than some other remote worker
    in India, who'll work for a third of your pay?
You know they have plenty of bossy assholes in India too, right? Hell, GPT3 could probably do 80% of most managers' jobs already...
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