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‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

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81–90 of 531 posts

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#81

I honestly don't know whether these articles are over-stating their case, and neither do I know how typical my own experience is, but for some reason it bothers me that the tone of the HN discussion is so reflexively dismissive. I understand that a lot of people will respond to a question of whether they intend to quit their job with a 'you bet!' even at the best of times, but I'm seeing a lot of people quitting and…

Interesting game-theoretic play: play chicken with return to work plans. Big co promises remote-first work indefinitely, scoops a bunch of talent from competitors who return to office first, then later go back on their word when nobody else is offering those terms. Even if some get to stay remote new hires may not be offered that. Corollary I guess is that some of us might be able to lock in a remote-only position if…

They could pull the same trick with pay, healthcare, or anything else they offer when their employees are starting. There's a reason they don't do that.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#82
post #61

I’m honestly perplexed what the FANGs are even thinking in being so aggressive about pushing an end to WFH. Sure it could all work out fine for them. Maybe employees will grumble for a bit, then settle back into office life. But maybe it wont’t . There’s a very real possibility that you lose a non-negligible percent of your staff (disproportionately the most talented who have other options), handicap your ability to…

Not directly addressing your point, but how common is it for someone to be a FAANG developer - extremely well compensated and smart by all accounts - and not have other options? An argument like this makes sense for the random dev shops and non-tech company dev departments across the country. For many of those, the top 1 or 2 people are arguably good enough to switch over to FAANG or HFT or some other very highly com…

Sure, there are always other options. But there's also inertia - switching jobs is stressful and risky. Forcing people back to the office provides a push that might get people to think, "Y'know what, maybe will hire me at L+1, and let me work remotely." The employees who can actually get the L+1 offer are the stronger ones.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#83

I think WFH is also primed for abuse, but I haven’t heard anything from companies of what they are going to do, or what employees are going to do, about preventing and avoiding abuse. it’s easy and rather flip and just say well if you don’t do your job you’re going to get fired, what does that mean exactly, and how long would it take? I think there’s also a trust issue, a lot of people who want to return to the offic…

What abuse? Do you think people sitting the office are actually doing work at all time? Anyone who pays attention at the office knows people are constantly wasting time socializing and surfing the web. It's all a facade to pretend like more work is being done. If anything COVID uncovered the fact that most modern jobs are unnecessary, or can be completed in very little time and don't require a 40 hour work week.

The focus should be on whether goals and projects are being completed not how much people have their asses in office chairs.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#84
WFH has the potential to end the worst macroeconomic trend of the last 20-30 years, which is the "you have to be in one of four or five cities to do something" trend. We have to fight for it. Resign, resign, resign.

The four of five cities where you "must live" are: San Francisco (Bay Area), New York, Los Angeles, Seattle, and perhaps Boston. Nothing happens anywhere else, or so goes the meme that has been deeply embedded into the culture of GenX and younger.

It results in "no good jobs or unaffordable housing, pick one." Without good jobs it's impossible to build your career. Without affordable housing it's impossible to accumulate wealth or raise a family. The working class of the top-tier cities is pushed into poverty as well as their housing costs start to become >50% (or more!) of their wages.

Oh, and all the interesting culture that made those cities "cool" to begin with gets priced out and leaves.

Building more housing in these cities won't work. The fact is that if we try to cram all opportunity into 4-5 cities there is nothing that will make those cities affordable save some massive government-subsidized sci-fi super-arcology housing project (that would probably suck to actually live in). If we build more then more people will come, the city FOMO feedback loop will intensify in the culture, and prices will go even higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_rent

The "everywhere else" cities all lose too as their talent base leaves, forcing companies to leave as well. Everyone loses except property owners and rentiers in top-tier cities.

WFH can geographically diversify. Over time if some returning to office occurs, people may look for jobs in their new local areas pumping more talent into the talent pools of those cities. Capital and VC is already more willing to geographically diversify than ever before, so the old "you can only raise money in the Bay Area" canard is just about dead.

Edit: this hyperconcentration is also a contributor to America's political polarization, since it turns everywhere into a bubble where people are surrounded only by people who think like them. The physical community becomes a filter bubble.

I also wonder just how large a contributor to wealth inequality this could be. It seems like wealth inequality has exploded over the same time period that the "you must be in one of a few cities" meme became deeply embedded in culture.

Yes there has always been a draw to the big "alpha world cities," but the trend I'm talking about is beyond that. Starting in the late 90s to early 2000s it became the idea that if you were not in one of those cities you couldn't do anything at all. You simply "must" be there.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#85

I’m honestly perplexed what the FANGs are even thinking in being so aggressive about pushing an end to WFH. Sure it could all work out fine for them. Maybe employees will grumble for a bit, then settle back into office life. But maybe it wont’t . There’s a very real possibility that you lose a non-negligible percent of your staff (disproportionately the most talented who have other options), handicap your ability to…

They could also play the slow game by tempting some people back and then letting social and career pressure take care of many of the rest. You'll have a much easier negotiating position when half the company and half the world are back at their desks.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#86
post #38

Fine, you want to WFH? Awesome, expect a pay cut. Part of a modern white-collar salary has some expectations built into it, like the fact that people need to be compensated for the inconveniences of leaving their homes and coming to the office and therefore having to pay for things like childcare, cars, clothing, parking, etc. Don't have those expenses anymore? Then why should I compensate you the same as if you did?…

>Don't have those expenses anymore? Then why should I compensate you the same as if you did?

Because you're paying people to complete a job, not for what they do outside of work hours genius. Are you paying people who have kids and longer commutes more money? Didn't think so.

>Why should I pay you more than some other remote worker in India, who'll work for a third of your pay?

They're 1/3 as good. If that's such a good option then why haven't you done it already?

Good luck getting qualified workers with that attitude. Capitalism works both ways bud and isn't an employer only benefit. Right now employees have the upper hand and if you want to bring decent talent in you should probably be competitive.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#87
So I have one bone to pick with these posts talking about "x% of people considering quitting". That actually doesn't mean anything. People consider doing lots of things all the time that will never happen. It's no different to using a Twitter poll as a source.

Yesterday I saw someone post about JP Morgan doing this and that person was suggesting a "hack" of choosing not to disclose your vaccination status to get out of a return to office (or at least delay it). It's worth noting that the EEOC has ruled private companies can fire people for not being vaccinated so proceed with caution.

As for the FAANGs, I do see some value in physical presence with your coworkers. This does allow interactions that otherwise wouldn't happen. The food and amenities has value. There's no doubt in my mind that a physically colocated team, all other things being equal, will have a closer team dynamic than a remote one.

But... times have changed. As software engineers in particular, we're in a fairly privileged position where we have a lot of options on where can work. Several big companies have already seen what way the winds are blowing and allow permanent remote work (eg FB, Twitter and even Google is in the early stages of this).

So you as an individual software engineer have the power to be an agent for change if this is something you care about and that is to vote with your feet if the company you work for forces your hand.

Personally, I lived in NYC for 10 years and there's a lot I liked about it but it reaches the point where you're choosing to live somewhere old, small and probably noisy but convenient or putting up with a commute, which really just robs you of time. At least in the tri-state area you can read or something. In the Bay Area where many have to drive, it's worse. And commutes are often much longer.

So I know I've made a lifestyle choice to move somewhere cheaper and warmer.

But a "great resignation"? I don't see it. Many don't have the options you do working in tech so they'll grumble about it but will comply and go back. I do wish we'd stop reporting people "considering" quitting as meaning anything at all however.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#88
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speak from personal experience, but fwiw I'm currently consulting with 2 non-tech Fortune 500 companies. Both have implemented "hybrid" return to office policies where employees have to live within 100 miles of the office and be able to come in 1 day a week or 1 day a month depending on team. I've talked with executives in charge of large teams at both companies about this issue and so far it looks like th…

> "hybrid" return to office policies where employees have to live within 100 miles of the office and be able to come in 1 day a week or 1 day a month depending on team. This is where I suspect a lot of places are going to end up in the medium term. I'm not back to the office in the first place, and I'm aware that I have a nice office and moderate commute, but I still want some wfh time, as well as some time seeing my…

The problem is that the req to live within 100mi doesn’t allow workers to fully engage in location arbitrage in the way the workers would like.

I think most people want a better work/life balance, which is what all this ultimately represents. I imagine the eventual long term settle is somewhere more in the “wfh, but with team gatherings for a few days once a month” in a lot of industries.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#89
post #61

I’m honestly perplexed what the FANGs are even thinking in being so aggressive about pushing an end to WFH. Sure it could all work out fine for them. Maybe employees will grumble for a bit, then settle back into office life. But maybe it wont’t . There’s a very real possibility that you lose a non-negligible percent of your staff (disproportionately the most talented who have other options), handicap your ability to…

Not directly addressing your point, but how common is it for someone to be a FAANG developer - extremely well compensated and smart by all accounts - and not have other options? An argument like this makes sense for the random dev shops and non-tech company dev departments across the country. For many of those, the top 1 or 2 people are arguably good enough to switch over to FAANG or HFT or some other very highly com…

You may walk in because of your CV, but the new employer may find out that an elite university and FMAGA resume does not guarantee programming and software design skills.

Some of the stacks at these companies are quite horrible.

Re: ‘Great Resignation’ gains steam as return-to-work plans take effect

#90

In my experience at least talking to some younger people there is a clear dichotomy: despite all the talk about Gen Z being "digital natives", people new in their career are much hungrier to get back into the office because they don't yet have good career networks built up and they're eager for mentorship. It is older, or at least more established workers who are less keen on that. I don't think FAANGs will have any…

This is the exact sentiment I hold as well. I think the demographics of hacker news may be slightly swayed towards people who already have established networks and industry experience.

Not just slightly skewed.

Also the HN audience is far more remote-oriented than I’ve encountered among my coworkers over the course of my career, including > 4 years working full-remote.

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