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Incremental note-taking

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Re: Incremental note-taking

#51
post #49

Something in my notes I wrote about note-taking and its apps months ago: "Google Keep is the best note-taking mobile app I've ever used. Interesting thing is, I didn't realize how good it was until I tried to switch to a better app due to Keep's lack of an obvious export feature. (You can export your Keep notes via Google Takeout.) What makes Google Keep so special? — Write icon opens to the body content, not the tit…

> What It Lacks - Markdown, or something similar - Import/export - revision control - hierarchical structuring - sharing notes with non-keep users - linking to other notes within the app

Noticed this so wanted to pitch in. Notesnook [0] solves most of these.

There is full markdown support, import from all the big note apps, you can share notes with anyone via Monograph [1].

Internal linking between notes is planned.

Google Keep is a awesome but only for taking quick notes. You are stuck as soon as you want to write something longform. Not to mention the privacy implications.

[0] https://notesnook.com

[1] https://monograph.notesnook.com

Re: Incremental note-taking

#52

> This means our tool has to be fast, and can’t burden you with questions like “In what folder should I put this?” that aren’t relevant in the moment. This is so important. I feel most note taking apps approach note taking the wrong way: organization first, ideas later. Most of our notes are random and the only real organization they can fit into is time. I have recently launched a note taking app [0] that keeps this…

I took interest and downloaded the app for testing. It looks slick and well polished. Great that it is available for so many devices and that you run sync service with such respect for privacy.

Couple of points though:

It wasn't clear to me where the notes are actually stored. If I'm relying on your tool to collect my private thoughts, I would require raw access to files. Sure, there is backup & restore features, but I'd still require full content access without going through the client. The info wasn't in any FAQ. It seems to be a SQLite db inside ~/.config/Notesnook/. Ideally the note taking system would have open and documented format so others can build tools to insert and query notes, provide CLI interface, show dated notes on calendar, and so on. I understand this is not necessary the direction you want to take this product.

When importing a .md document, the first line "# heading" was set to be paragraph type with 24pt size instead of Header 1 type, and Header 1 seems to be generally missing from the pull-down menu. Other types of headings were correctly transformed.

As I type in a new heading using the markdown syntax "## subheader" and press Enter, the text is correctly converted to Header 2 type, but Pro version popup is triggered. I would call this a bug. Either don't convert to header, or don't show the nag screen.

The splash screen that advertised the Monograph feature could not be dismissed without pressing "Start publishing" button. Maybe that button should be changed to some less misleading text (it doesn't actually lead to any publishing feature).

I like the business model and I would gladly subscribe at this price. I also love that I can already run it and try everything out without even having an account. The thing is, right now the text formatting buttons are a minefield of PRO-only features. I just dislike when applications include buttons for pro features that open nag screen. If you want to keep the client slightly crippled for free users, you could at least disable (gray out) pro features. It would be much cleaner cut if only syncing service is paid, but I don't know enough about your target users and business model.

In general I would love to be able to restrict formatting UI to just markdown features. I don't want to accidentally change font size or mess with text alignment. All included options for text formatting are just noise to me and I prefer simplicity in note taking.

Just few thoughts from trying it for 20 minutes. I'm still thinking about using it seriously.

Re: Incremental note-taking

#53
post #32

This is a good research topic but my opinion differs - The article claims that the forgetting of 90% is an underrated problem. I think it’s generally a feature that enables us to converse, read stories, and live. It’s a garbage collector. More specifically, however, it gets in the way when we learn new things. You read something important, have an aha moment, but then forget it a minute later when your short-term mem…

I agree on your first and second point. As for third, reformatting and updating some old notes is huge waste of effort for me. I don't want to treat everything as a 'live document' because it creates an implicit responsibility to keep all the ancient notes up to date. This is not realistic. I'm also more creative when starting note from scratch.

Would prefer a workflow where a note can be corrected and refined over couple of days, and then enters read-only mode. The only way to correct and append to it would be to create a new note with better text, and optionally redirect any links to the new note.

Re: Incremental note-taking

#55

> This means our tool has to be fast, and can’t burden you with questions like “In what folder should I put this?” that aren’t relevant in the moment. This is so important. I feel most note taking apps approach note taking the wrong way: organization first, ideas later. Most of our notes are random and the only real organization they can fit into is time. I have recently launched a note taking app [0] that keeps this…

I took interest and downloaded the app for testing. It looks slick and well polished. Great that it is available for so many devices and that you run sync service with such respect for privacy. Couple of points though: It wasn't clear to me where the notes are actually stored. If I'm relying on your tool to collect my private thoughts, I would require raw access to files. Sure, there is backup & restore features, but…

Wow. Very detailed feedback and very helpful as well.

About storage: since the app is electron based, it stores everything in IndexedDB. I didn't want to use something separate because it'll add extra stress. However, your point about mentioning where things are getting stored is important. I'll make those changes ASAP.

> Ideally the note taking system would have open and documented format.

It's really just HTML. It's not stored in local files but the content of notes is actually just plain, normal HTML.

> When importing a .md document, the first line "# heading" was set to be paragraph type.

Hmm. That's probably because I turned of H1 since there's already a title at the top. Should the title be separate?

> but Pro version popup is triggered.

This can be annoying. It has been on my backlog to fix this and make it less annoying but I haven't gotten to it so far.

> It would be much cleaner cut if only syncing service is paid.

I took the opposite route with Notesnook. App functionality is limited but you get unlimited syncing to unlimited devices.

> In general I would love to be able to restrict formatting UI to just markdown features. I don't want to accidentally change font size or mess with text alignment. All included options for text formatting are just noise to me and I prefer simplicity in note taking.

Or in other words, a way to hide the toolbar. I noted it down for later.

Thank you so much for taking the time to point all these small things out. Means a lot.

Re: Incremental note-taking

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took interest and downloaded the app for testing. It looks slick and well polished. Great that it is available for so many devices and that you run sync service with such respect for privacy. Couple of points though: It wasn't clear to me where the notes are actually stored. If I'm relying on your tool to collect my private thoughts, I would require raw access to files. Sure, there is backup & restore features, but…

Wow. Very detailed feedback and very helpful as well. About storage: since the app is electron based, it stores everything in IndexedDB. I didn't want to use something separate because it'll add extra stress. However, your point about mentioning where things are getting stored is important. I'll make those changes ASAP. > Ideally the note taking system would have open and documented format. It's really just HTML. It'…

> Hmm. That's probably because I turned of H1 since there's already a title at the top. Should the title be separate?

For note taking app allowing only single title makes a lot of sense.

The note title came from the file name, and my H1 got demoted to Paragraph with larger text. Since md can have any number of H1's, it doesn't seem possible to convert it without loss of information. One option would be to detect if there is only one H1 and use that instead of file name for note title. If there is more than one, then convert all H1 -> H2, all H2 -> H3 and so on.

Re: Incremental note-taking

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Very detailed feedback and very helpful as well. About storage: since the app is electron based, it stores everything in IndexedDB. I didn't want to use something separate because it'll add extra stress. However, your point about mentioning where things are getting stored is important. I'll make those changes ASAP. > Ideally the note taking system would have open and documented format. It's really just HTML. It'…

> Hmm. That's probably because I turned of H1 since there's already a title at the top. Should the title be separate? For note taking app allowing only single title makes a lot of sense. The note title came from the file name, and my H1 got demoted to Paragraph with larger text. Since md can have any number of H1's, it doesn't seem possible to convert it without loss of information. One option would be to detect if t…

That sounds like a reasonable trade off.

Re: Incremental note-taking

#58
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(The expanded and updated version of the parent's first referenced article is [1].) I'd say on-topic. The core of incremental reading is a highly configurable mechanism of distributed exposure to your notes over time, which is an activity the article advocates for. In addition to letting the user walk the revision path through the note maze, the SuperMemo implementation walks the extra mile in suggesting an optimal s…

This is fascinating. I’ve come across SuperMemo and use spaced repetition for self-created decks. However, incremental reading is something new to me, like a missing piece. Seems like it’s a process of turning any linear material into a deck. Have you or anyone else use it? And could comment on results / issues?

It is the process you broadly describe, and more. I use it and it has turned addictive. The very registration of texts into a priority queue (SuperMemo implementation) relieves from stress inherent to keeping reviews of high volumes of possibly disparate, disconnected, badly formulated, texts, prior to properly formulating them in active-recall form (usually question and answer pairs), to commit them to memory.

Because these reviews are distributed (it is a separate algorithm to the one governing core Q/A repetitions) and also interleaved with other material, you are encouraged to operate on portions of texts on each review, giving your brain a chance to consider different successive improvements, such as:

- transformation into smaller portions (which are themselves registered and subject to distributed review),

- introduction of supplementary material (e.g. other articles, multimedia),

- better wording,

- contrasting with other sources,

- personalization.

It beats the single exposure to material and upfront "ankification" (formulation into Q/A cards), in which biases—such as single-perspective bias, or recency bias—are prone to manifest more strongly in the formulation of your material. Furthermore, because the sources of information tend to remain unreviewed after this (i.e. kept off-system), there could also be a tendency to accept their premises or claims without competition from other sources.

Issues I can find with it usually arise from the desire to meet tight deadlines: it is counter-productive to distributed reviews, crystallization of knowledge, and memory consolidation, to rush the process. The SuperMemo implementation also has a vast toolset, which may be hard to grasp in the beginning. This article[1] provides a coherent explanation of the process from a user perspective.

Edit: SuperMemo 15 and above are incremental-reading-enabled; there are freeware downloads and trials should you be inclined to try it[2].

[1]: https://www.masterhowtolearn.com/2019-08-06-supermemos-incre...

[2]: https://super-memory.org/english/down.htm

Re: Incremental note-taking

#59
Like many here, I've been working on one of these apps for years, off and on. Although I've been thinking deeply about it for some time, OP did such a great job describing the problems and conceptual space I'd have a hard time not just linking to it from my app's "why" page, should it ever exist. Really exciting to see so many others chasing this space, I honestly believe we'll see some really stellar contenders in the near future. And probably a few in parallel that suit different personality types better, which is great.

I agree w/ most of OP, a few things I think should work differently. One to call out -- images. When I build prototypes without drag and drop image support, I find I quickly stop using it until I add support for them. It's just too useful on a computer to grab a screenshot of something or make a little diagram. This is especially true when I am in "thought dump" mode.

I also played with append only and while its _usually_ sufficient, it is very annoying when not. I compromised by making it append by default, but easy enough to right click -> edit.

Re: Incremental note-taking

#60
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(The expanded and updated version of the parent's first referenced article is [1].) I'd say on-topic. The core of incremental reading is a highly configurable mechanism of distributed exposure to your notes over time, which is an activity the article advocates for. In addition to letting the user walk the revision path through the note maze, the SuperMemo implementation walks the extra mile in suggesting an optimal s…

This is fascinating. I’ve come across SuperMemo and use spaced repetition for self-created decks. However, incremental reading is something new to me, like a missing piece. Seems like it’s a process of turning any linear material into a deck. Have you or anyone else use it? And could comment on results / issues?

I've used it for about a decade or so. It's really good, but the entire program is tightly coupled with old MS APIs/IE, so importing material is a pain.

Roughly the process goes: Import article -> read section (create extract/readpoint (a bookmark of where you were in the article) -> review extracts/articles -> create cloze deletion/card (if necessary).

I can't use any other app for this process because you can't really schedule material like that in Anki/Polar Bookshelf/RemNote. Supermemo is unique in that the material you want to make cards of eventually gets scheduled itself, so you don't have to remember to read something. I would use Polar Bookshelf, but every time I've checked in on it, they haven't added that feature. In Supermemo can import dozens of articles at a time, assign them priorities, and know I'll eventually be shown them to read.

I have a couple thousand articles imported at this point, and I never need to remember to read them. This is the most important feature for me, and why I've continued use Supermemo for so many years rather than switch to Anki or Polar Bookshelf.

Not needing to remember to read something you found interesting, rather than just save it as a bookmark somewhere (every bookmarking app) is a killer feature for me, but apparently is not very useful to other people. I've tried explaining it to several people (including the developer of Polar Bookshelf), and they just don't really care.

The longer I've used Supermemo, the fewer cards I end up making from material (most things aren't really worth memorizing/remembering or even reading once you step away from it for a few days/weeks). But, I still import a lot of articles/comment threads from HN etc I eventually want to read.

Often times I'll create extracts, and not actually make cards of them, because I just like rereading that particular paragraph.

I have tasklists of business/programming/etc ideas, that also get shown during my daily reviews. I can add to them, or generally get reminded that I was thinking about X at some point. Very underrated feature.

If you don't want to see something again, you can dismiss it from the review process so it doesn't show up in your reviews. However, the information is still in your collection, so you can still search for it.

Most people take notes and then never look at them again (this comes up in every note taking thread on HN). Supermemo continuously shows me my notes over days/months/years. It also shows me interesting articles I want to read on a daily basis. It also helps me remember whatever I want. All I have to do is open the app once a day and hit next repetition.

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