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Is There Anything Good About Men?

psy.fsu.edu

61–70 of 237 posts

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#61

What I dislike about these kinds of "evolutionary" arguments is that they tend to assume that the differences between the genders are genetic, even when there's no evidence for that. Even as late as the Victorian ages, several of the traits we now think of as immutable part of being male or female were swapped around. For the Victorians, blue was for girls and pink was for boys, and all women had the potential to bec…

Did you read the article? The author gives several examples that completely counter your underlying argument. It isn't about ability, it's about motivation.

Again, so if women lack those motivations, where did feminism come from?

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#62
post #55

First off, the author misrepresents the idea of patriarchy as a "conspiracy of men to subjugate women". That's not how I've heard how it's been defined. Patriarchy/kyriarchy, roughly put, is a series of assumptions and privileges provided to a segment of the population, often at the expense of everyone else. It's not, as far as I can see, a conspiracy -- i.e. a secret plan hatched by a clandestine group that goes aga…

"Secondly, the author doesn't make a convincing argument that the fact that the reason why men get all the risk and all the reward is because of something innate, instead of a self-perpetuating social system that actively encourages one gender to risk it all and reap the rewards, while holding back the other gender to mediocrity and risk-free existences. The possibility is raised for a few sentences, and discarded, as if it's ridiculous, and it's obvious that the reasons are inherent."

The article explains that the "innate" reason is simply that, biologically speaking, men are more expendable. A few men and many women can create a large population more quickly than many men and only a few women. Applying risk equally possibly results in a substantially reduced population, while leaving risk mostly to males allows more to be accomplished without strongly affecting population numbers. Great rewards provided for those who succeed in a risky endeavor merely supports the accomplishment of those objectives. I'm not sure where you find fault with this argument.

The premise is undeniable and the only conclusion that is on even possibly shaky grounds is that societies would act to preserve their population, hence leaving men responsible for risky activities. To suggest otherwise does seem "ridiculous," though I'd love to hear someone who disagrees with that and why one would believe otherwise.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#63

What I dislike about these kinds of "evolutionary" arguments is that they tend to assume that the differences between the genders are genetic, even when there's no evidence for that. Even as late as the Victorian ages, several of the traits we now think of as immutable part of being male or female were swapped around. For the Victorians, blue was for girls and pink was for boys, and all women had the potential to bec…

You fail to provide a compelling defense of your argument. One of the major points of the article was in direct opposition to your first sentence. It was supported by arguing that biology forces women to be more important for reproduction and then showing how this can lead to the circumstances we have today. Your disagreement is predicated on certain traits not being linked to femininity or masculinity and economic f…

There's very little actual substance there to invalidate, and I did discuss some of issues. His analysis of women's creativity is wrong, and is his talk about relative sex drives is spurious. I also think it's a huge mistake to label cultures who have persisted by making over half their population miserable (women and low-status men) as "successful". If you wanted me to take it apart line-by-line you will have to be disappointed.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? The author gives several examples that completely counter your underlying argument. It isn't about ability, it's about motivation.

Again, so if women lack those motivations, where did feminism come from?

You are clearly missing the point. It's not that every woman lacks motivation, it's that the trend for woman is to lack a particular motivation to do a certain thing, which - the author points out - is exactly the same behaviour men exhibit.

It just happens to be that this tendency, coupled with differing social behaviours and expectations, is what has produced the current situation.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? The author gives several examples that completely counter your underlying argument. It isn't about ability, it's about motivation.

Again, so if women lack those motivations, where did feminism come from?

It would be nice if someone would actually address this instead of just downvoting. I knew my comment wouldn't be popular when I made it, but I was hoping to get some actual answers out of the deal.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#66

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Since Dawkins became fashionable, it is now normal to portray human beings as nothing more than meat-based mechanisms for storing and transporting DNA. This idea is dangerously embedded in society now, and it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism. What possible motivation does one have for behaving in a manner other than that of…

I don't think it's dangerous at all, because 'culture' and 'society' are derivatives of genes. The larger organization of culture and society stabilize the individual in context.

It would take quite a bit of evolution to expel those 'stabilizing' parts from Humanity, if it ever happened. Some people are genetically more likely to be generous, in certain conditions, and others are more likely to be selfish in those same conditions. Change the conditions, and change the probabilistic response. Those types of genetic probabilities keep the chaotic system stable.

The probability of action in context probably fits like a normal curve. Its a balancing act of some flitting genes moving around a median point equilibrium.

I'm making all these assertions from my intuition, of course.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#67
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wikipedia entry only very briefly touches on some of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_Wars#Controversy_and_signi... But saying only that To make a long story really short, the British did ridiculous amounts of good in their colonies. is VERY simplistic. No sentence describing the British empire should start with "To make a long story short".

> To make a long story really short, the British did ridiculous amounts of good in their colonies. is VERY simplistic. No, it's not. By pretty much any reasonable metric, the British Empire has contributed more net good to humanity than any other nation in history. Plenty of bad, too. But overwhelmingly more good than bad. Much of the good is taken for granted until you realize all the mess they cleaned up that isn't…

As Assistant Secretary to the Treasury he was placed in charge of the administration of Government relief to the victims of the Irish Famine in the 1840s. In the middle of that crisis Trevelyan published his views on the matter. He saw the Famine as a "mechanism for reducing surplus population". He described the famine as "The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Charles_Trevelyan,_1st_Baro...

In Ireland this man was responsible for administering famine relief, and I respectfully disagree with your contention. Perhaps he felt he was doing net good. What he then felt he was doing and what he actually did are different things. He changed his mind later on, but his policies are believed to have lead to the death of over one million three hundred and eighty five thousand Irish.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You fail to provide a compelling defense of your argument. One of the major points of the article was in direct opposition to your first sentence. It was supported by arguing that biology forces women to be more important for reproduction and then showing how this can lead to the circumstances we have today. Your disagreement is predicated on certain traits not being linked to femininity or masculinity and economic f…

There's very little actual substance there to invalidate, and I did discuss some of issues. His analysis of women's creativity is wrong, and is his talk about relative sex drives is spurious. I also think it's a huge mistake to label cultures who have persisted by making over half their population miserable (women and low-status men) as "successful". If you wanted me to take it apart line-by-line you will have to be…

> over half their population miserable

Do you have any data to support the assertion that everyone that isn't occupying a high-status leadership role within a society is "miserable"?

You're personalizing the argument and then missing the point.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#69
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Why would you say this essay "paints us as slaves to our genes?" I didn't read it that way at all. In fact there's so much content there to discuss that I think it's really unfair to make such an unrelated generalization about the whole thing. There is much discussion about evolutionary traits, for sure, but just because it's there as an explana…

It's amusing to live in a world where instinct in animals is readily accepted as heritable, and yet whether or not humans can inherit behaviors is hotly contested. Almost seems like another round of people looking to maintain the illusion that humans are separate from animals. What was the last one we had, tool use?

Instinct is by definition inherited genetically.

All experts in this field agree that humans inherit behaviour genetically. For example, the rooting reflex.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#70
post #32

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Since Dawkins became fashionable, it is now normal to portray human beings as nothing more than meat-based mechanisms for storing and transporting DNA. This idea is dangerously embedded in society now, and it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism. What possible motivation does one have for behaving in a manner other than that of…

All heritable behaviors that lead to men or women not reproducing don't stay in a population very long. It's not so much slave to genes as it's a boundary condition. That doesn't take away from your daily experience as a human. You can still do whatever you want, day to day, year to year, not giving much thought of your genetic viability and still be a happy, healthy human being. Just because you know how a rainbow w…

>All heritable behaviors that lead to men or women not reproducing don't stay in a population very long

I'm not sure about this. What I mean is that I can clearly see the logic here, but I'd love to see a discussion for instance on the continual existence of evolutionary destructive traits such as homosexuality, which by all accounts has not only been around for a great deal of human existence, but also other species.

It's possible perhaps that there are evolutionary paths that, although dead-ends, are easily mutated into and thus always present in a species...

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