Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin • Hacker News Board

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#381

Post by ravitation » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 8:55 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #300

ravitation wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not actually the question since countries with modern healthcare systems provide all types of insulin at an average cost per unit that is roughly 1/10th to 1/20th the cost in the United States (cheap vs. expensive is an over simplification).

No, it is the question because countries with public health systems often don’t pay for the latest generation of drugs, since they don’t feel the extra cost is worth the benefit.

My comment answered that "countries with public health systems" actually do "pay" for the "latest generation insulin" (i.e. the price for the "latest generation insulin" is still a tiny fraction the cost in the United States).

Just repeating the question, when I gave you the answer, isn't very productive.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#382

Post by Thebroser » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

cadr wrote: post #214

Thebroser wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are crazy patents throughout the entirety of the insulin production pipeline. Some of these being extremely absurd such as patenting the pH of a buffer for specific protocols! I volunteer for the Open Insulin Foundation on/off when not too focused on my research project and it's basically how can we come up with a roadmap to making this decentralized insulin without violating any existing patents. An added laye…

I wonder if a better effort would be to challenge the patents rather than try to go around them. (Not that I don't think what you are doing is awesome, because I do.)

Yes! The Open Insulin foundation not only has volunteers with a biomedical background, we have volunteers from many other backgrounds including lawyers that help us try and challenge existing patents. Again, others have said that manpower might be better invested in openly challenging the monopoly that U.S. companies have on some of these patents in court or by appealing to our congressmen. However, I believe that there’s no reason not to do both in parallel. My scientific training can only take me so far and i’ll happily help a project like this if it can open up a new source of affordable insulin in this country, but believe me, I know that at the root this is a legislative issue.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#383

Post by TheCoelacanth » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 10:25 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #325

GrinningFool wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> please, please, please call the Eli Lily hotline and get the copay card. While this is a great thing, it's also necessary that you be prepared to fork over personal data - especially proof of income - and otherwise do whatever is required to prove that you are (un?)worthy enough as with any similar medical financial aid program. https://www.lillycares.com/assets/pdf/lilly_cares_applicatio...

Its not a financial aid program, its a market segmentation program.

Exactly, they just want to suck you dry. They don't want to let a̶ ̶p̶o̶t̶e̶n̶t̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶s̶o̶u̶r̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶r̶e̶v̶e̶n̶u̶e̶ you die from lack of medicine that costs them pennies.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#384

Post by AstralStorm » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 6:34 AM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #341

mkoubaa wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the sentiment but decentralizing and downscaling production is a win for resiliency. This is a good example but others include recycling and power generation have clearer benefits

> decentralizing and downscaling production I think you are severely underestimating what it takes to produce a protein drug like insulin. Getting the bug to make it is just the first step. Then next step is purifying it. Which takes SO much water, and salts, and specialized equipment (resins, columns, high-pressure apparatus). A decentralized insulin production scheme is going to be VERY ecologically destructive.

It's not that bad ecologically, but I'm not getting why these people are reinventing the wheel.

Buying out a patent and properly documenting it should be doable.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#385

Post by AstralStorm » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 6:36 AM UTC

erosenbe0 wrote: post #338

shkkmo wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those econmies of scale are simply driving up profits for an oligopoly that uses IP laws and acquisitions to extract maximum value from sick people. We could revoke the IP and thus force these companies to compete on price... but that hasn't happened. Thus the only solution that is making any progress is circumventing the IP and developing an open process.

What IP though? Humalog is off patent. It now appears to be just red-tape or collusiom.

The problem is that patent system is a joke, and the description is likely broken (or incomplete) enough so that even a bunch of experts will have to experiment with the process to decrypt it.

You really need to buy out trade secrets of this particular brand.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#386

Post by AstralStorm » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 6:40 AM UTC

jcims wrote: post #116

gentleman11 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife bakes bread almost every day and grows her own yeast. She loves it and the bread is fantastic. What is so ridiculous?

It’s a little more complicated than that. Bread is ingested through a system optimized to absorb nutrients from outside the body. Insulin must make it into the bloodstream intact, typically through injection. It’s also incredibly potent, a unit of insulin dried to crystalline form weighs less than 40 micrograms, so it much be administered in a sterile carrier fluid. Lastly the penalty for overdosing is generally call…

On the other hand, glucose blood levels are reasonably easily measurable and being slightly on the high side is fine, but the precision pumps (or microfluidics) to do this dosing automatically and accurately are still expensive.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#387

Post by AstralStorm » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 6:47 AM UTC

slim wrote: post #269

Thebroser wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are crazy patents throughout the entirety of the insulin production pipeline. Some of these being extremely absurd such as patenting the pH of a buffer for specific protocols! I volunteer for the Open Insulin Foundation on/off when not too focused on my research project and it's basically how can we come up with a roadmap to making this decentralized insulin without violating any existing patents. An added laye…

it's basically how can we come up with a roadmap to making this decentralized insulin without violating any existing patents This is how patents are supposed to foster innovation. Wasted effort reinventing the wheel

Both too long time of life, and too easy and cheap to extend.

Most importantly, it's a while set of single thing patents which means you need a thick, expensive cross licensing agreement most of the time. Even finding out which patents you need is hard, and then the patents are written in a way that nakes them hard to use too, including incomplete in crucial details.

It's a mockery of the original intent of the patent system.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#388

Post by chiefalchemist » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 11:21 AM UTC

skohan wrote: post #359

chiefalchemist wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is (mostly likely) a rent-seeking situation where a few providers who are allowed in the market are milking it for all the profit they can. That is also known as demand. They do because they can.

Many of your comments reflect a misunderstanding of basic economics

I'm the downvotee. I think they understand economics. Who doesn't? What they refuse to admit is:

1) Healthcare is a limited resource, like anything else.

2) Prevention, which few if any "leaders" highlight, is a viable alternative to healthcare price increases.

Are there there some nefarious undercurrents? Yes, of course. But to blame all our ills - and remove diet, lifestyle, etc. - on ever increasing demand only makes the current system stronger. People who believe they have no control aren't part of the solution.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#389

Post by chiefalchemist » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 11:26 AM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #262

chiefalchemist wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of folks who have Type I that can't afford Insulin and have to ration it causing harm and additional costs in healthcare Exactly. The preventable T2D is driving up demand (read: prices) for both T1D and T2D. I don't know about Canada. I do know about supply and demand. We all do. In the context of healthcare it makes no sense that ppl abuse their health and then expect prices to fall.

What if I were to tell you the the Insulin for Type II diabetes is $35 at Walmart and the Insulin for Type I is $380-$500. By your reasoning shouldn't it all be expensive? What you fail to consider it that the company that controls the particular type of Insulin that Type I diabetics require is charging 80% less in Canada than in the USA with everything else equal. Do you get it?

Manufacturing - not just the product - is a resourse as well. Going to the doctor is a resource. Health insurance employees a resource. Etc. We keep puttingg more and more demands on the resources and...want prices to fall?

Do you get it?

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#390

Post by curryst » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #82

DerpyBaby123 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you doubt it was developed in 1996? Do you have evidence that the cost of production has significantly risen? Otherwise, you seem to be repeating the old economics joke: "The young economist looks down and sees a $20 bill on the street and says, “Hey, look a twenty-dollar bill!” Without even looking, his older and wiser colleague replies, “Nonsense. If there had been a twenty-dollar lying on the street, someone wo…

When there is a claim that there exists an arbitrage opportunity worth billions of dollars, I would consider it common sense to consider why has no one claimed the arbitrage opportunity yet. The world has many very smart people spending many hours working very hard to find these opportunities, so the likelihood of it just sitting there like a $20 bill on the street, and not being picked up, seems quite small. I do no…

The reason no one will pick it up is because there are massive capital investments to get something like that up and running, and the existing manufacturers can just drop their price to compete with you as soon as you get up and running. Now you have to recoup your capital costs in a saturated market, and your competitors can probably make insulin cheaper than you due to pre-existing economies of scale.

I would imagine that even other companies already in the pharma space would be interested. They don't want to play the race to the bottom game with billions of dollars in upfront costs. If anything, it's probably more profitable to make a new form of insulin that you get to patent. Which is how we end up where we are.