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Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

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Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#61

Post by hutzlibu »

"she just doesn't really feel like she can put in the same hours on the same work week in week out anymore, while sitting in our apartment with the sun shining outside"

I can relate to that. And my solution is simply to work outside very often.

But the conditions need to be right, distraction free. (and of course it depends on the kind of work she is doing)

I have a place outside, hidden from sight and noise by rocks and trees. I can only hear the river softly flowing down in the valley - this is just a perfect distraction free environment for me.

But I moved specifically to this place, because of those conditions. You say you life in a apartment? Maybe you can rent out a garden plot somewhere, where you can set up a nice place in the shade, so that she can at least spend some working hours outside and not feel trapped inside?

This might help in general, whether she stays with the current job, or not.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#62

Post by ohyes »

Well, the jig is up, as they say. Being absolutely honest about what is going on could work, or it could get her fired. But if she genuinely likes the workplace & people and management is worth staying around for, it can work out fine.

“I’m finding this repetitive task combined with the isolation of quarantine is having a negative effect on my productivity. I’m interested in developing new skills to broaden or introduce some variety into my role, is there anything that we could do to make this happen?“

It’s turned from a question about someone’s productivity problems to a question about how much more can I do for the company. 9/10 a good manager will jump at the chance to avoid an awkward “why aren’t we getting the work done?” conversation and have a (much more productive) “let’s help each other out” conversation.

It is also very likely that no one has noticed the work is slowing down and it is just a normal sort of check in.

Really you should not let it get this far that you feel this negative about the work you are doing.

YMMV, & not my fault if you try this and lose the job anyway as loss of job is an expected outcome when you stop doing it. No one should get soulcrushed and discarded, but it does happen frequently.

Also, this only applies to the relatively privileged industry of ‘tech’ where you’re expensive to replace and finding anyone competent enough is an incredible chore.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#64

Post by gyulai »

isatty wrote: post #56
coliveira wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad reality is that programming as we knew years ago is going into extinction. The only thing that remains is to work as library integrator and debugger for X, where X is something that is popular this week. All interesting software development left is in open source, and SEs are now just required to integrate existing libraries into a GUI done by somebody else, or a server side component that talks to that GUI.…

This is not true at all. Software engineering is about solving problems. Are you not solving problems with existing libraries?

You have to be extremely senior these days to be in a position where they actually let you solve problems of any kind. (The paradox is: At that level of seniority, you are no longer capable of actually seeing the problems).

I'm a software engineer with a Ph.D. from an elite university and 10 years experience. For me it has consistently gone like this for the past 10 years, and that was in a huge variety of different companies:

Manager: We need to add field X from data source Y to interface Z. Please do that for us.

Me: This will take 93 days.

Manager: That's perfectly fine.

Me: The reason it will take 93 days instead of 3 days is that your whole architecture is a pile of shit because of problem A, problem B, and problem C. Fortunately for you, I happen to be someone who is capable of seeing and solving problems. So here is what I'd like to do for you instead: I'll use 30 days to solve problem A, 30 days to solve problem B, 30 days to solve problem C, and, with those problems solved, 3 days to add field X from data source Y to interface Z. Your spending is the same, plus it's an investment in your software architecture that will pay dividends, because there's a good chance that next week you'll want to add field V from data source W to interface Z, and solving those problems, that too will then be a 3-day project instead of a 93-day project.

Manager: Wow, you are great at identifying and solving problems. I'm glad I hired someone who is such a great problem solver. But please don't do any of that. We just need you to add field X from data source Y to interface Z without touching any of the things you just said you'd like to fix.

Me: But it will take 93 days, and you are paying me a shit-ton of money, don't you care about that money and how it's put to use?

Manager: We have enough money to not give a shit about the money we give to you, and part of the reason we are giving it to you is so I don't have to expend my mental effort evaluating proposals like the one you just made. So, please just do as you're told.

Me: Okay. sound of soul crushing

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#65

Post by ratww »

cjensen wrote: post #15

Please don't assume the question is "disingenuous." It's an invitation to talk about what's going on, and bring the manager into the loop. Most managers really do want to help! More concerning to me is the "I always lose my job or quit." It sounds a lot like you're running into a pattern in your life which causes you to underperform. If it's emotional or mental, please consider seeking counseling. Brain chemistry can…

> Please don't assume the question is "disingenuous." It's an invitation to talk about what's going on, and bring the manager into the loop. Most managers really do want to help!

^ That's a very important reply. Whenever I send one of those messages like OP quoted, what I really mean is to ask if there's anything I can do to help.

A manager is not an old-school "boss" responsible for cracking the whip. Managers exist to coordinate, organise, bridge communication, remove obstacles... It takes several conversations with higher-ups and with HR for a manager to fire someone, and if I fire people too often people start questioning my ability to hire and manage.

However I notice that the specific message on OP is a bit ambiguous, I would personally add some suggestions ("do this instead", "let's ask X for help, they have experience with this kinda stuff").

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#66

Post by alpaca128 »

isatty wrote: post #56
coliveira wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad reality is that programming as we knew years ago is going into extinction. The only thing that remains is to work as library integrator and debugger for X, where X is something that is popular this week. All interesting software development left is in open source, and SEs are now just required to integrate existing libraries into a GUI done by somebody else, or a server side component that talks to that GUI.…

This is not true at all. Software engineering is about solving problems. Are you not solving problems with existing libraries?

Honestly, in some areas it feels like adding libraries only adds more problems and a lot more cost to integration than one expects beforehand.

I'm not saying libraries are bad in general. But when it comes to dependencies I have seen no sign of change since the left-pad debacle and that concerns me, not only because I think fixing broken dependencies and builds is one of the most frustrating things to do in development.

Preventing problems is even better than solving them, and in contrast to at least some colleagues I know I tend to prefer to "waste" time writing some of my own code, because at least I know how to debug or adapt that.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#67

Post by crispyambulance »

isatty wrote: post #57
crispyambulance wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, from the employer point of view, this is why vacations exist. A vacation would have helped to avoid this. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed. The OP situation looks like burn-out. If someone has reached actual burn-out, a mere 2 weeks isn't going to be enough. I think a lot of people are going through this now working without boundaries and no real vacation, it leads to really bad outcomes. Burn-out is serious.

Not everyone is the same - 2 weeks is better than nothing.

I agree. A solid 2 week vacation with absolutely no contact with work will be helpful.

Coming back, however, is going to be difficult. If the workplace is setup for inescapable "nose-to-the-grindstone" KPI's that have consequences for someone that has been underperforming, it could get ugly if the OP needs more time to reset themselves.

In many places, however, a few months of slump isn't going to lead to a PIP if the OP can go through the motions and practice enough self-care to gradually get better. I think enough folks are going through this now that employers are aware it's widespread problem. Some will handle it better than others, of course.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#70

Post by unishark »

coliveira wrote: post #28
giantg2 wrote: post #7

"In software this would be the equivalent of just writing components or html for an extended period of time without any variety, which is soulcrushing." I actually want less variety. I never get consistent work. How can I be an expert if I don't have a steady type of work. I'm really struggling right now. A lot of that is because I know that anything I learn at work will be used once and then thrown away. What's the…

The sad reality is that programming as we knew years ago is going into extinction. The only thing that remains is to work as library integrator and debugger for X, where X is something that is popular this week. All interesting software development left is in open source, and SEs are now just required to integrate existing libraries into a GUI done by somebody else, or a server side component that talks to that GUI.…

I think there's a kind of pyramid. From the small number of people at the top who make the hardware, to a larger number making the OS, to a larger number making various libraries, to the most people (with least technical-skill requirements) making products by tacking API's together. The bottom of the pyramid may be increasing in size the fastest, meaning the most jobs (and if the labor supply can't keep up, we get this backwards system where the highly-trained engineers make less than far-less-skilled API users), but those jobs at the top of the pyramid haven't gone away, they've just been eclipsed.
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