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Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

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Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#51
I like the idea of asking for a 4-day, 32-hour week.

Or 4-day 30-hour week.

The 30 hours is important for America -- because of health insurance.

If none of that works, try to get 20 hrs/week part time, so you don't starve, go homeless, etc.

I doubt it's actually enough to fix burnout, but...worth a shot?

I wonder if there are any 9-5 jobs out there that are still interesting -- where you get to do more than just 'x'. I'm thinking - in a comfy corporate setting - the one with health insurance.

I guess some jobs are genuinely more interesting than others, but...getting one that you're never going to be seriously considered for -- don't know what the answer is for that.

I don't know if it was more Taylor or Ford or whoever, but Adam Smith did warn that capitalism would lead to humans who would naturally lose the desire to do braindead work, and become "as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human creature to become."

So from that POV, burnout shouldn't surprise.

I think managers are on the good/bad spectrum -- but that's totally missing the point.

Even if you're sexing your manager, you might get a rude awakening when your performance start's affecting your manager's/sex partner's career.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Take week vacation, or more, maybe you can do a week or two to recharge, unpaid, etc.

All the usual stuff applies and likely won't help - eating right, exercise, sleep, socializing, getting outside, enough B12, get blood work done if/while you can, see if you have deficiencies affecting energy levels.

Maybe meditation? I'm a believer, but don't do it.

Or, try to transfer within the company. Last time I tried that, it didn't work, I stayed too long, should have bounced, was a complete disaster, literally almost killed me, etc.

So that's probably my best advice -- try to be willing to consider doing those things which you won't consider doing to support yourself while you un-burn-out -- drive for uber, stocking grocery store shelves, etc.

One thing I realized now that I'm an old -- people go thru crazy stuff. Like, I'll say something pretty revealing about some stuff I went thru in life or work or whatever -- casual convo at the bar, American-style, whatever -- and someone will be like, "Oh yeah, me too, but [insert their 10x story here]."

I'm like, 'J** F** -- like how are you still here??' :-D

People at work have gone thru and are going thru that.

BUT...trusting that to your manager? Sometimes it's the only play you got, and usually, imo and experience, I would _not_ recommend playing that card.

Instead, you're fine, you're energized, you _love_ your job and always will and are energized for more work -- it's just that you "want new challenges".

I feel like it's super-easy to quit yourself out of a job, especially when you're low-energy/depressed/burned-out/intellectually-and-emotionally-defenseless when your manager or your manager's manager says, "So I hear you're not feeling motivated??"

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#52
post #7

"In software this would be the equivalent of just writing components or html for an extended period of time without any variety, which is soulcrushing." I actually want less variety. I never get consistent work. How can I be an expert if I don't have a steady type of work. I'm really struggling right now. A lot of that is because I know that anything I learn at work will be used once and then thrown away. What's the…

You could try to become a respected expert in learning then? There is a lot of use for people who can pick up XYZ in a timely manner. Especially in software where the world moves so fast (unless you do C or similar) that yesteryears knowledge is outdated this year.

Personally I think the kind of work I do rewards learning things/executing things fast. I take extended periods of doing the same things as a.. bonus? Things will always change, and in FE development I feel like it's all integration. Which is fine for me, and what I want to sharpen is to be quick and have a feel of what kind of integration does the business/story/ticket needs. Balancing that with maintainability and teamwork is what's interesting. The programming part is only a tool for me. I'm happy that I get paid to solve problems mainly with my programming/abstract thinking skills instead of managing skills or negotiation skills; not programming itself.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#53

Well, it's better than the talk my manager gave me, "Looks like you're not as productive lately? What's going on? This place (bay area) is small, everyone knows everyone. Your reputation will follow you."

The world is far too big for anyone to care as to a minute detail of "Developer John Doe didn't meet my productivity metrics". That's worthy of a (mental) eye roll. Workers in this industry, at the moment, have the leverage, not the employers.

True but the tech world IS small. I’m not coming to the defense of the business or management but there is some truth to it. Everyone is only a degree or two from anyone else in the BA, and you bet your ass people ping old coworkers about candidates that land on someone’s desk.

You may eyeroll but if you have a trusted coworker ping someone and they come back with “he was the most unsuccessful junior dev I’ve ever met” (a real personal story) that guy does and did end up at the bottom of a waste basket

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#54

I’ve found that when most managers ask questions, they’re just trying to get a sense of what’s going on. I wouldn’t over analyze it. I would also suggest that honest answers are the best. If you’re having a hard time doing the work, is there something else you could be doing? As much as it doesn’t feel like it, companies do not want to fire employees. It’s expensive to lose someone who knows the business, and expensi…

> It’s expensive to lose someone who knows the business, and expensive to hire someone. That's not true. Letting people go is a great business strategy because it means companies don't need to give salary increases. They will right after that hire someone with less experience and making less money. But what about the business knowledge, you ask? Well, any company that knows what they're doing won't ever let important…

> Letting people go is a great business strategy because it means companies don't need to give salary increases.

Only if you're not replacing them. People typically (in my experience anyway) get much larger raises when they move jobs than year on year at the same job.

So either you're paying more for the new hire than you would have by retaining the old employee, or you're replacing them with someone probably less experienced/valuable in general, and certainly less experienced in the specific role you're trying to fill. Lose/lose.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#55
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely not universally true. My current employer sets compensation by asking "what is the business cost of losing this person?"

Your company probably don't know what they're doing, just read my explanation above.

You seem to be very sure of your opinions about management's motivation. Are you yourself a manager or executive, or is this your opinion as a worker observing your employer's behavior?

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#56
post #7

"In software this would be the equivalent of just writing components or html for an extended period of time without any variety, which is soulcrushing." I actually want less variety. I never get consistent work. How can I be an expert if I don't have a steady type of work. I'm really struggling right now. A lot of that is because I know that anything I learn at work will be used once and then thrown away. What's the…

The sad reality is that programming as we knew years ago is going into extinction. The only thing that remains is to work as library integrator and debugger for X, where X is something that is popular this week. All interesting software development left is in open source, and SEs are now just required to integrate existing libraries into a GUI done by somebody else, or a server side component that talks to that GUI.…

This is not true at all. Software engineering is about solving problems. Are you not solving problems with existing libraries?

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#57

Would a vacation help?

Yes, from the employer point of view, this is why vacations exist. A vacation would have helped to avoid this. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed. The OP situation looks like burn-out. If someone has reached actual burn-out, a mere 2 weeks isn't going to be enough. I think a lot of people are going through this now working without boundaries and no real vacation, it leads to really bad outcomes. Burn-out is serious.

Not everyone is the same - 2 weeks is better than nothing.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#58
post #6

I’ve found that when most managers ask questions, they’re just trying to get a sense of what’s going on. I wouldn’t over analyze it. I would also suggest that honest answers are the best. If you’re having a hard time doing the work, is there something else you could be doing? As much as it doesn’t feel like it, companies do not want to fire employees. It’s expensive to lose someone who knows the business, and expensi…

I think that depends highly on the work and company. I think Amazon warehouse or delivery has over 100% annual turnover. Clearly they don't care.

And that makes them a bad employer. Eventually they're going to hit a wall with this and be forced to change.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#59

I’ve found that when most managers ask questions, they’re just trying to get a sense of what’s going on. I wouldn’t over analyze it. I would also suggest that honest answers are the best. If you’re having a hard time doing the work, is there something else you could be doing? As much as it doesn’t feel like it, companies do not want to fire employees. It’s expensive to lose someone who knows the business, and expensi…

> It’s expensive to lose someone who knows the business, and expensive to hire someone. That's not true. Letting people go is a great business strategy because it means companies don't need to give salary increases. They will right after that hire someone with less experience and making less money. But what about the business knowledge, you ask? Well, any company that knows what they're doing won't ever let important…

This isn't true. And I have an MBA, so I know that even if it were true, it's not what managers are being taught.

It's expensive to replace people. Advertising, screening, interviewing, induction, training, all take up time. New employees are not productive from day 1, and take a long time to ramp up to "full" productivity.

Losing people is also disruptive to the social life of the business - that person's friends may be less happy/productive after they leave. And all their friends may question their choice of employer - the loss of a popular staff member can trigger a wave of departures.

And experienced employees are more productive. The economics of paying experienced employees more works fine.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#60

I’ve found that when most managers ask questions, they’re just trying to get a sense of what’s going on. I wouldn’t over analyze it. I would also suggest that honest answers are the best. If you’re having a hard time doing the work, is there something else you could be doing? As much as it doesn’t feel like it, companies do not want to fire employees. It’s expensive to lose someone who knows the business, and expensi…

I think it depends a lot on what they put in the "____" for: > or if you've been spending more time doing ___ Was ____ "watching Netflix", or was ____ "helping person X who is doing more interesting work and whom you are not being paid to help/work with."

do anyone actually have received something like "or if you've been spending more time doing watching Netflix"??

It's more than a red flag.

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