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Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

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Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#91

Post by sithlord »

TheFreim wrote: post #33
sithlord wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so incredibly wrong - and trying to claim something you know obviously nothing about is hilarious. The different between NPH (regular insulin) (maybe R too, not sure??) sold by walmart and Fast Acting insulins (Novolog, Humalog, Apidra) is massive. Fast acting insulins start working at about in about 30 minutes and "peak" at like 2 hours, and may slowly have some effects for another 1-2 hours. NPH on the othe…

Would it be possible to get a limited amount of the fast acting stuff for unpredictable situations and then normally use the "cheap" stuff? I don't know how this works so I would like some info from someone who seems to know.

Not likely, also lets not forget - as a Type 1 diabetic, you also take long acting insuling (unless you are on a pump). So, for example, a pump uses only fast acting insulin - and it gives a small amount (known as "basil") every 5 minutes (+/- depending on pump).

Whereas, if you use pens (or from a vial) with direct injection, you also take a long acting insulin (levemir, Lantus, etc) once or twice a day (they are supposed to last 24ish hours but often people find splitting their total daily dose up into morning and night has better results). And these insulins cost even more than the fast-acting stuff.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#92

Post by [deleted] »

nceqs3 wrote: post #83
lotsofpulp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PBMs are mostly owned and operated by the managed care organizations (insurance companies). The insurance companies have profit margins of less than 5%.

This is not true and just an industry talking point from the PBMs. They use revenue tricks to hide their profit margin. See https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/payer/facing-criticism-pbms...

[deleted]

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#93

Post by arwineap »

RHSeeger wrote: post #71
mgarfias wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s different kinds. IIRC the cheap stuff and Walmart is just that, cheap. It’s fast acting, and varies in how it reacts in the body. Our real issue here is that there is absolutely no incentives to control costs. You’d think our ins companies would do it, but I’m practice, they end up negotiating sweet deals with the drug manufacturers. say med X @ $1000/mo msrp, but the ins companies negotiate it down to $400/m…

> It’s fast acting, and varies in how it reacts in the body. I believe they offer R (short acting / 2-5h), N (medium), and L (long acting / 24h). The problem with the older insulins isn't so much that they're faster, it's that they're less "specific" (from my experience). A newer short acting insulin (Apidpra, etc) has a spike in the 15-30 minute range and the spike is steep and the tail (while up to 5 hours) is low.…

That's context I've never gotten before. Obviously there's a nice convenience benefit built into this product that a company has created, they should get to charge some markup for that.

I wonder how different the production costs are though, my understanding is the costs to consumer are greater than 10x

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#94

Post by sithlord »

nceqs3 wrote: post #58
sithlord wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so incredibly wrong - and trying to claim something you know obviously nothing about is hilarious. The different between NPH (regular insulin) (maybe R too, not sure??) sold by walmart and Fast Acting insulins (Novolog, Humalog, Apidra) is massive. Fast acting insulins start working at about in about 30 minutes and "peak" at like 2 hours, and may slowly have some effects for another 1-2 hours. NPH on the othe…

The net price on Humalog has gone down since 2014. The PBMs are the ones who distort list prices.

This is probably true - and I am not here to point fingers - but I will say that the insulin manufacturers are at some fault too, they do just enough to keep renewing their rights to their insulins every time they come around.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#95

Post by burkaman »

gruez wrote: post #74
burkaman wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is working as intended, the argument is that those intentions are inhumane. Can you think of any medical treatments that were developed without the promise of 20 years of limitless profits? I can.

> Can you think of any medical treatments that were developed without the promise of 20 years of limitless profits? I can. This sounds like it's responding to a strawman. Proponents of the patent system aren't claiming that zero innovation would happen without patents, just that it would be much less. In other words: No patent system: only inventions from altruistic inventors Patent system: inventions from altruistic…

Let's say corporations were only promised a 10 year monopoly instead of 20. Do you think their business would collapse, or would they keep trying? If profit-focused inventors could still be motivated by a 10 year horizon, then that extra 10 years only benefits corporate executives and kills patients. So, is the patent system as limited as possible while still encouraging innovation? Obviously not, because pharma companies routinely direct billions of dollars in profit into stock buybacks instead of research or any other actual investment. They can easily afford to make less profit.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#97

Post by wizzwizz4 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #35
pope_meat wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wall Street Smart Genius types have long held that curing disease is bad business, managing symptoms over the entire lifetime allows them to extract more capital out of the cattle. So, if you're looking to cure something you're going to struggle to find funding. Don't worry though, the economy will survive.

I wonder how the Hep C cures, COVID vaccines, shingles vaccine, HPV vaccines, and other cures got funding over the past 2 decades.

Grants and government funding, mostly. But then companies get patent monopolies on production because… reasons.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#98

Post by lotsofpulp »

nceqs3 wrote: post #83
lotsofpulp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PBMs are mostly owned and operated by the managed care organizations (insurance companies). The insurance companies have profit margins of less than 5%.

This is not true and just an industry talking point from the PBMs. They use revenue tricks to hide their profit margin. See https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/payer/facing-criticism-pbms...

My information is from 10-K filings with SEC, and my statement is referring to net profit margins, which are what they are. Unless there is massive fraud going on, managed care organizations are not earning massive profits. If their PBM divisions are, then they are simply subsidizing the insurance division, but it would make no difference to people. The total expense for premium plus out of pocket expenses would not change, it would just shift from one to the other.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#99

Post by throwaway0a5e »

foxyv wrote: post #14
sparrish wrote: post #8

This is bogus. Wal-mart sells insulin for $24.88 a vial without prescription currently. It's only the newer 'guchi' insulin brands that are crazy expensive. Stuff from 1996 that is compared to in this article is actually cheaper than it was in 1996 (adjusted for inflation).

The hard part is getting doctors to offer prescriptions for the cheaper brands as an alternative. A lot of doctors will prescribe the most expensive drug simply because they believe or know that it is better in some way without regard to it's cost. It's changed a lot recently as doctors have become more aware of the cost of these drugs. But you still have to self advocate for less expensive drugs. Less savvy people o…

> A lot of doctors will prescribe the most expensive drug simply because they believe or know that it is better in some way without regard to it's cost.

This is so obnoxiously common across every profession.

People are willing to piss away other people's money on "the best" without even telling them what the options are.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#100

Post by lotsofpulp »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #97
lotsofpulp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how the Hep C cures, COVID vaccines, shingles vaccine, HPV vaccines, and other cures got funding over the past 2 decades.

Grants and government funding, mostly. But then companies get patent monopolies on production because… reasons.

Yes, I do take issue with the government granting monopolies to private entities with taxpayer funded research. But not all of the funding for all the treatments I mentioned, which are clearly cures and not meant to bleed people until they die, came from government.

Sometimes the pendulum swings too far towards cynicism.

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