World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day • Hacker News Board

Re: World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day

#81

Post by marcus_holmes » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

xbaq wrote: post #63

marcus_holmes wrote: post #42

I always wonder about the morality questions. This is like a lab experiment for subjective morality. For the sake of the experiment, let's assume the sci-fi writers are right, and eating animals will eventually be considered immoral. This is an extreme stance at the moment (hello PETA) but let's assume it will eventually be accepted as the only moral stance. How long will it be between the introduction of lab-grown m…

It is not a generational issue. Sometimes it seems like the Internet thinks that all the *isms have been invented after 2010. Studying newspapers or TV shows from the 1970s easily refutes that assumption. Also, there is no correlation between goodness and vegetarianism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler_and_vegetarianism

So, firstly, this:

> For the sake of the experiment, let's assume the sci-fi writers are right, and eating animals will eventually be considered immoral.

Also, is it vegetarianism if you only eat lab-grown meat? It's still meat, right, so you're still not vegetarian. Or is it the "not eating animals" that makes you a vegetarian now?

I tend to think that (e.g.) Iain M Banks is right, and that eventually eating animals will be considered immoral (and not the same as vegetarianism). You may disagree, and that's fine - everyone has an opinion.

The interesting question is not whether the future will consider this immoral, but whether if it becomes immoral in the future that applies retroactively and makes it immoral now? Does morality change over time, or regardless of time?

I grew up in the '70's so I've seen the change in morality first-hand, but that all kinda caught us by surprise. It's going to be interesting being more aware of the change in morality around this.

Re: World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day

#82

Post by Falling3 » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

sva_ wrote: post #25

spywaregorilla wrote: post #5

The price seems to be ~$3.90 to produce chicken breast. Given that I regularly find chicken breast in a store for $1.99, I'll assume that's still ~3x as costly as just farm raising chickens. It will be interesting if subsidies can change this though. The negative externalities of raising animals must be huge. The jobs tied up in these industries are enormous as well though.

I'm pretty sure that the poultry industry is already receiving major agricultural subsidies to get to that price.

Yep. Animal ag is both directly and indirectly subsidized pretty heavily in the US. If we removed their subsidies and moved them to lab grown meat, the economics work out in favor of the latter much sooner.

Re: World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day

#83

Post by esens » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #42

I always wonder about the morality questions. This is like a lab experiment for subjective morality. For the sake of the experiment, let's assume the sci-fi writers are right, and eating animals will eventually be considered immoral. This is an extreme stance at the moment (hello PETA) but let's assume it will eventually be accepted as the only moral stance. How long will it be between the introduction of lab-grown m…

> How long will it be between the introduction of lab-grown meat until killing animals for food is banned? Is this a generational thing (so older people still consider eating animals to be acceptable, while younger people do not), or is it a country-wide thing (countries move to ban eating animals one by one, driven by a general shift in moral attitude), or what? How does this change in morality propagate through society?

Just because they ate meat? Maybe not, but they may not look kindly on those that did large scale killing with less than humane practices. I could see this individuals being more likely to be "Cancelled."

Maybe those that fought vegans or fought against animal rights activities?

Those opposing change for the better or were active participants in things we in the future see as bad.

Remember that most people cancelled were active participants, rather than passive bystanders going with the flow.

Re: World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day

#84

Post by Clewza313 » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

smogcutter wrote: post #79

marcus_holmes wrote: post #42

I always wonder about the morality questions. This is like a lab experiment for subjective morality. For the sake of the experiment, let's assume the sci-fi writers are right, and eating animals will eventually be considered immoral. This is an extreme stance at the moment (hello PETA) but let's assume it will eventually be accepted as the only moral stance. How long will it be between the introduction of lab-grown m…

> Will we get to the point where statues of now-famous people are pulled down because they ate animals? Assuming some variant of "cancel culture" exists then, will that act retroactively and currently-lionised people get cancelled because they are carnivores, even though the current culture that they exist in considers it acceptable? Perhaps, if those statues were originally erected in honor of their diet, and to rem…

We're busily pulling down statues of various slave owners, none of which were erected to honor their slave ownership.

Re: World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day

#85

Post by marcus_holmes » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 2:04 PM UTC

smogcutter wrote: post #79

marcus_holmes wrote: post #42

I always wonder about the morality questions. This is like a lab experiment for subjective morality. For the sake of the experiment, let's assume the sci-fi writers are right, and eating animals will eventually be considered immoral. This is an extreme stance at the moment (hello PETA) but let's assume it will eventually be accepted as the only moral stance. How long will it be between the introduction of lab-grown m…

> Will we get to the point where statues of now-famous people are pulled down because they ate animals? Assuming some variant of "cancel culture" exists then, will that act retroactively and currently-lionised people get cancelled because they are carnivores, even though the current culture that they exist in considers it acceptable? Perhaps, if those statues were originally erected in honor of their diet, and to rem…

I wasn't really referencing the US statue-pulling-down because that's a lot more fraught and convoluted. It was more the thing with Cabot in my home town of Bristol (UK).

But fair criticism, it's not an equivalence. I was struggling to find a decent example.

Though I can totally see a PETA stunt of pulling down a statue of Elvis because he ate meat.

Re: World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day

#86

Post by ethanbond » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #37

ethanbond wrote: post #2

> Future Meat Technologies says this facility requires 96-percent less freshwater than livestock production, as well as using 99-percent less land and producing 80-percent fewer greenhouse emissions. Even accounting for PR hyperbole, it is so apparent at this point that any country who chooses not to board this train will be at the mercy of those who do. This is a national security issue. We can choose to curse our y…

> with a warped sense of ickiness or masculinity, or we can choose protein security indefinitely into the future I think you're confusing a few things. I'm very pro lab-grown meat, and I don't see why it would be either "icky" (if anything, it could be much more "pure", able to grow in controlled conditions without any pesticides, hormones or antibiotics) nor less "masculine" (a steak is a steak is a steak). I'm very…

Not confusing those things, this is just a different argument against a different thing (plant based meat).

Re: World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day

#87

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

justinmchase wrote: post #47

marcus_holmes wrote: post #42

I always wonder about the morality questions. This is like a lab experiment for subjective morality. For the sake of the experiment, let's assume the sci-fi writers are right, and eating animals will eventually be considered immoral. This is an extreme stance at the moment (hello PETA) but let's assume it will eventually be accepted as the only moral stance. How long will it be between the introduction of lab-grown m…

Another question is, if its banned to kill an animal for meat, for various animals, how long until they go extinct? Many are co-dependent on humanity for their survival at the species level... Or at the very least how will it affect their evolution?

[deleted]

Re: World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day

#88

Post by ethanbond » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #21

ethanbond wrote: post #2

> Future Meat Technologies says this facility requires 96-percent less freshwater than livestock production, as well as using 99-percent less land and producing 80-percent fewer greenhouse emissions. Even accounting for PR hyperbole, it is so apparent at this point that any country who chooses not to board this train will be at the mercy of those who do. This is a national security issue. We can choose to curse our y…

> sense of ickiness or masculinity If they can keep the cost lower (2/3 or better 1/2 price) than animal meat, all of the stigma will just poof out of existence. This is very exiting, but its a not solution to global warming (only small factor). >> Methane has a large effect but for a relatively brief period, having an estimated mean half-life of 9.1 years in the atmosphere, whereas carbon dioxide is currently given…

Totally agreed - competitive flavor at superior price will make those other arguments disappear. That’s why I think we should view this as a foregone conclusion and get positioned to simply own the future, or at least not have our future owned by someone else.

Re: World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day

#89

Post by ethanbond » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #68

ethanbond wrote: post #2

> Future Meat Technologies says this facility requires 96-percent less freshwater than livestock production, as well as using 99-percent less land and producing 80-percent fewer greenhouse emissions. Even accounting for PR hyperbole, it is so apparent at this point that any country who chooses not to board this train will be at the mercy of those who do. This is a national security issue. We can choose to curse our y…

You're foolishly projecting ideology and personal beliefs into somewhere so far removed from the consumer that it simply won't matter. Commodities buyers don't care who's corn is ethical or who's corn is unethical. They don't care who's ground beef is manly and who's isn't. It all comes down to cost per results at the end of the day. Resource usage is just a part of that calculation. No different than the cost of shi…

I agree with everything you say here and if I communicated that the arguments against lab meat are durable, that was the opposite of my intention. What I mean to say is that it’s a foregone conclusion and we should be expediting its arrival and gaining an edge in that future.

Re: World’s first lab-grown meat facility pumps out 5k burgers per day

#90

Post by marcus_holmes » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

wcoenen wrote: post #75

marcus_holmes wrote: post #42

I always wonder about the morality questions. This is like a lab experiment for subjective morality. For the sake of the experiment, let's assume the sci-fi writers are right, and eating animals will eventually be considered immoral. This is an extreme stance at the moment (hello PETA) but let's assume it will eventually be accepted as the only moral stance. How long will it be between the introduction of lab-grown m…

I suspect reality will be a lot more boring. Animals are a low efficiency method of converting plant material into meat, both in terms of calories and protein mass input/output. So with scale, eventually lab-grown meat should become much cheaper than traditional meat. At the same time, it will be higher quality. Sterile production will eliminate E. Coli, salmonella, antibiotics... Input nutrients will be tightly cont…

You may be right.

There's this weird thing with some speciality produce clashing with EU regulations on food prep at the moment. Not to mention unpasteurised milk. It could end up in that basket. Strange clubs of weirdos meeting up to butcher and eat an animal, and everyone else thinking that's completely disgusting.