Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning • Hacker News Board

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#21

Post by themarkn » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 3:30 AM UTC

diego wrote: post #7

I'm sure every day in the US there are many, many reports of structures with damage that needs to be fixed immediately (my house was one of them). Almost all of them don't collapse. Obviously there is a problem with the credibility of the reports because of conflicting incentives. Inspectors are usually from construction companies who want to get work, so they will always find something wrong with a building. Edit: I…

I didn’t downvote, but … this is just some claims and assertions with no reason to believe them. It’s fine that you think these things I guess, but it’s not a useful comment cause it’s just speculation and frankly it sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder about previous experiences with inspectors. Are there really “thousand of daily reports” like this, or is that just a feeling you have? Is the threshold of “urgently fix this for safety reasons” too low due to bad incentives? I don’t know, and though you think that, you haven’t backed it up so the comment is low quality and the downvotes are helpful imo.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#22

Post by cm2012 » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 3:30 AM UTC

KyleBrandt wrote: post #6

MattGaiser wrote: post #5

Does anyone have a copy of the report?

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-source/default...

I can see why the condo didn't jump on this. There's not a lot of urgency on the repairs in the letter, and certainly no warning of "do this or the structure will collapse".

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#23

Post by jfim » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 3:30 AM UTC

KyleBrandt wrote: post #6

MattGaiser wrote: post #5

Does anyone have a copy of the report?

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-source/default...

It's interesting that the report begins by mentioning water infiltration issues in some units and that the part about structural damage only starts on page seven. I wonder if that's usual for this kind of report to put the major expensive structural repairs at the end.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#24

Post by R0b0t1 » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 3:31 AM UTC

BobbyJo wrote: post #17

diego wrote: post #7

I'm sure every day in the US there are many, many reports of structures with damage that needs to be fixed immediately (my house was one of them). Almost all of them don't collapse. Obviously there is a problem with the credibility of the reports because of conflicting incentives. Inspectors are usually from construction companies who want to get work, so they will always find something wrong with a building. Edit: I…

That could be a bad assumption. In some circumstances, inspectors with ties to construction companies may have incentives to add to the sales funnel, but I believe, anecdotally, that inspection companies tend to have no ties with construction companies to avoid the optics of exactly what you are describing. Anyone that's ever gone to a mechanic knows getting inspection come from the place that's supposed to do the wo…

While I understand your concern your viewpoint is naive. Civil engineering is a relatively close knit field (as are many fields). Possibility for kickbacks is definitely there.

Something that has really put me off of license requirements is the relish that I have seen inspectors take in telling people they're going to need tens of thousands in renovations to bring a home up to code. Some of these items are things like "window sill does not go far enough inside."

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#25

Post by anm89 » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

xwdv wrote: post #18

handmodel wrote: post #2

I have no idea how these things work - so I'd really like some data on what percent of reports come back with similar warnings? Was this like the only building in the city to have such a bad report? Or do a sizable amount of buildings get warnings like this?

A lot of buildings have similar warnings but since they don’t collapse typically they will be ignored. The millennium tower in SF for instance, has been sinking and tilting for years, could probably just suddenly collapse one day not unlike this building in Surfside. The carnage would be immense though, as it is a massive building. At the end of the day, if you want full peace of mind you need to live in your own det…

This feels like "the front fell off".

Why did this building collapse?

Well, typically, they don't collapse.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#26

Post by cryptoz » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

anonuser123456 wrote: post #19

Having read the report, I am stopping my monthly contributions to NPR. This is straight up quote mining as far as I'm concerned. Nothing in the report would lead me to believe the structure was in imminent danger if I were a resident / board member / inspector etc. This is trash journalism. Edit: I would like to note the following for people following this story: The report author has stated: “among other things, our…

As an uninformed outsider, from the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't consider any coastal Miami property to be 'safe' regardless of any reports or ratings.

The whole area is sinking, quite quickly overall. It's just common sense to disregard the results of any report deeming any building in the area 'safe', when the local government has been religiously denying that climate change even exists at all, and the insurance companies and report writers all have a short-term incentive to pretend nothing is wrong.

I have not read the report. But I also don't need the report to know that no building in the area is safe enough for me to want to live there.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#27

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

anonuser123456 wrote: post #19

Having read the report, I am stopping my monthly contributions to NPR. This is straight up quote mining as far as I'm concerned. Nothing in the report would lead me to believe the structure was in imminent danger if I were a resident / board member / inspector etc. This is trash journalism. Edit: I would like to note the following for people following this story: The report author has stated: “among other things, our…

[deleted]

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#28

Post by cm2012 » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

anonuser123456 wrote: post #19

Having read the report, I am stopping my monthly contributions to NPR. This is straight up quote mining as far as I'm concerned. Nothing in the report would lead me to believe the structure was in imminent danger if I were a resident / board member / inspector etc. This is trash journalism. Edit: I would like to note the following for people following this story: The report author has stated: “among other things, our…

Agreed. That report was absolutely not a call to urgent emergency action. The closest is a warning that the building was built wrong and will eventually need to be fixed, 2.5 pages in.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#29

Post by Orou » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

diego wrote: post #7

I'm sure every day in the US there are many, many reports of structures with damage that needs to be fixed immediately (my house was one of them). Almost all of them don't collapse. Obviously there is a problem with the credibility of the reports because of conflicting incentives. Inspectors are usually from construction companies who want to get work, so they will always find something wrong with a building. Edit: I…

You could just as easily argue that the owners of the building must be at fault because they have a financial incentive not to repair structural damage for as long as possible.

We can also look at this from the lens of outcomes if we lean too far one way or the other with our approach to safety standards - too strict, and we allocate money poorly. Too lax, and people die.

Re: Surfside official told residents building was safe, despite engineer's warning

#30

Post by mdoms » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 3:34 AM UTC

anonuser123456 wrote: post #19

Having read the report, I am stopping my monthly contributions to NPR. This is straight up quote mining as far as I'm concerned. Nothing in the report would lead me to believe the structure was in imminent danger if I were a resident / board member / inspector etc. This is trash journalism. Edit: I would like to note the following for people following this story: The report author has stated: “among other things, our…

So you'd be comfortable to live in a high rise building for which an independent engineering report contained the following text?

The joint sealant was observed to be beyond its useful life and are in need of complete replacement. However, the waterproofing below the Pool Deck & Entrance Drive as well as all of the planter waterproofing is beyond its useful life and therefore must all be completely removed and replaced. The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas. Failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially.

Edit - this is text from the actual report - not sure why the downvotes.