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The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

politico.eu

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Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#201
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese This is absolutely not true, at least in countries I've lived. Do I believe that someone in the USA is capable of producing very good feta? Absolutely! And I've had some. However, the vast majority of what you will find in the typical grocery stores isn't very good, majority of it notably inferior not only to the imports, but random stuff I've boug…

No offense, but there's nothing particularly special about Feta produced in Greece. Feta-style cheeses are produced across a fairly wide region in the Eastern Mediterranean, and I don't think the style is so singular that it can't be (or isn't) authentically reproduced elsewhere. More generally, I can understand consumer protections that focus on the nature of the product itself , but where the product comes from is…

> If the goal were simply to make sure that Feta always tastes like "authentic" Feta, then the regulations would focus on ingredients, process and the final product. But regulations about where the product is produced exist because producers want to exclude competition.

This is not true and you don't know things as well as you think you do. PDO regulations absolutely focus precisely on ingredients, process and the final product.

For example, PDO regulations for feta stipulate, among other details, that it must be made with sheep's milk with the addition of up to 30% goat's milk and that the milk must come from animals born and bred in the Greek regions of Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Macedonia, Central Greece, Peloponse and Lesvos, from the breeds adapted to the area and reared by traditional methods. The fat content of the milk must be at least 6% w/w and the pH of the milk before the cheese is made must be at least 6.5. The milk must be made into cheese at most 48 hours after milking. The finished cheese must be aged for at least two months in brine containing 7% NaCl w/w. The final product must be a cheese "distinguished by its slightly acid and salty taste and its properties of mild lipolysis" (lipolysis imparts a piquant taste to cheese), with a maximum water content of 58%, minimum fat content of 43%, and 2% salt in water. There are more detailed instructions here:

https://ec.europa.eu/geographical-indications-register/eambr...

So the PDO regulates the provenance of the sheep milk, as well as the location the cheese is manufactured, but obviously the focus is on the quality and organoleptic characterisics of the ingredients in the specified territories, and that because the same characteristics are not reproducible in different territories (for example because the breeds of milk producing animals are different and the flora they feed on, and therefore the soil bacteria that flavour this flora, are different).

I also note that most "feta" cheese made outside Greece is actually made with cow's milk. For example, this was the case with French, German and Danish "feta" before Greece successfully defended its PDO and it is still the case today for feta made in the US. I'm not sure about Australia, but it's probably the same there. In Greece, cheese made in the same way as feta but with cow's milk is called "telemes" and is also a PDO cheese.

As far as I can tell, no "feta" cheese made outside Greece has the piquant taste imparted to cheese milk by lipases, that characterises Greek feta.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These terms long ago became generalized. There are already trademarked brands, what does this extra layer of protectionism add. I don't think we should allow anyone to call a hamburger, they can call them ground beef patties on a bun - which is what they are. Same with sandwiches outside of sandwich. Probably the same with indian pale ales, etc.... The geographic term describes a style.

>These terms long ago became generalized GI describes what words are protected as a region/ location description vs what words are generalized/ part of the dictionary it is a style of something yes, but a style thats linked to a town/ region/ county, that the product has always been created in IPAs are deffo not a location specific decription, since it's a style or make of beer with no location. the indian part in IP…

IPAs were made in Britain.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#203
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece was just an example, hence the “say” it’s not close to my favourite. My point stands, there is a huge gulf in the US and Canada, UK (smaller experience with local feta there but it wasn’t good) etc. I wouldn’t support a GI limited to Greece , edited to clear that up. I suspect we are making compatible points - you that other countries exist that make good feta by default (true!) - me that countries exist where…

My point is mainly that these are producer protections masquerading as consumer protections. I would have no problem with a definition of "feta" that focused on things like the ingredients, process or qualities of the resulting cheese. Those are the sorts of things that a law intended to protect consumers would focus on. Instead, the EU defines "feta" by region (with some ingredient and process requirements as well),…

What about consumers that want a guarantee on the production?

Can you see a world where consumers and producers are not in opposition, and actually have some alignment of interests?

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#204
One has to protect what has added value qualities. Industrial products made by immigrant families in the US or Canada is still industrial, without any real value other than a name, and some generic protein and calories count.

Drive around and you'll find small batched terroir quality products all over North America. These are products that should protected and promoted all the way to icon land, not bad imitations of something 100 times better and originally made abroad.

Big business people are always after the lowest "not hanging anymore" fruits, the ones splattered on the soil. They need to up their game and do better. Much better.

Added value quality food (or else) products are sought after by many million Americans willing to pay a premium. Can't you smell the money trail?

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that the details matter. Slightly different breeds of animal, different weather conditions, or different bacterial ecosystems affect the resulting cheese. You can make something similar to these products elsewhere, but it won't be exactly the same. Some products are famous and specific enough that customers have a right to be able to know when it's the real deal (and there are many such customers - ot…

I always feel these arguments are a bit disingenuous. You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese apart from "Feta-like" cheese produced in any number of places around the world. These laws are not about protecting the consumer from inauthentic products. They're about protecting producers from competition. Exclusive ownership of famous culinary names like "Feta" and "Champagne" is valuable, an…

> You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese apart from "Feta-like" cheese produced in any number of places around the world.

That's not true, because most feta produced outside Greece is made with cow's milk, rather than sheep and goat's milk. In Greece it's made with sheep and goat's milk.

Why does that make any difference? First, because cow's milk is relatively tasteless compared to sheep and goat's milk. Goat's milk in particular has a strong "gamey" flavour and sheep's milk is also "heavier" than cow's milk.

Sheep's milk also has a different composition than cow's milk. Depending on breeds and season, sheep's milk has almost double the amount of fats and proteins (caseins and whey proteins) than cow's milk (and also goat's milk, which is about the same as cow's milk in composition).

More importantly, feta made with sheep and goat's milk has a piquant taste imparted by the lipolysis that is the result of lipases found particularly in goat's milk. Although to be fair, lipases are nowadays added to cheese milk as an additive, because they are destroyed by pasteurisation (and most Greek cheeses are not made with raw milk). However in practice lipases are never added to cow's milk "feta" possibly because consumers used to cow's milk "feta" don't expect it to be spicy-hot, as real feta should be.

There's also various other organoleptic characteristics that distinguish sheep and goat's milk cheeses from cow's milk, for example the firmness of the paste - more elastic in cow's milk cheeses, more crumbly in sheep and goat's cheeses. etc. etc.

tl;dr, yes, you can absolutely tell the difference between Greek feta and "feta" from outside Greece, provided you know what Greek feta tastes like. Which I think you probably don't. I think you're just assuming that it must all be a big bunch of lies to sell cheese that's just the same as any cheese.

Well, it's not.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the thing is, what if you produce feta with the exact same ingredients and recipe in Australia? The customer gets the exact same thing, only made somewhere else. I'm all for quality standards, so that customers can now exactly what they get. But be able to use a name based on the location where something is produced, that doesn't protect the customer at all. It only protects a selected set of producers.

Why not call it something else and it would sell equally well on its own merits? You are basically given a better starting position because of the association with the name Feta, Champagne or Cognac. If Nike, the North face or some other trademark owner moves production to a different factory, you can’t continue production of the same goods even if the quality is the same. The GI and trademark name translates to extr…

Why not call your favorite wine "jar of horse piss"? Wont it sell equally well on its merit?

Because that is what the "feta-like" phrasing is doing in consumer's minds. Put the same feta side by side, where one is labeled "DOCG greek feta" or whatever, and the other is called "feta-like cheese", and the greek feta will outsell the other 100% of the time.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#207
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but there's nothing particularly special about Feta produced in Greece. Feta-style cheeses are produced across a fairly wide region in the Eastern Mediterranean, and I don't think the style is so singular that it can't be (or isn't) authentically reproduced elsewhere. More generally, I can understand consumer protections that focus on the nature of the product itself , but where the product comes from is…

Greece was just an example, hence the “say” it’s not close to my favourite. My point stands, there is a huge gulf in the US and Canada, UK (smaller experience with local feta there but it wasn’t good) etc. I wouldn’t support a GI limited to Greece , edited to clear that up. I suspect we are making compatible points - you that other countries exist that make good feta by default (true!) - me that countries exist where…

> I guess feta is a good example of the problem of defining these things by region not process. I feel pretty confident that "feta" shouldn't belong to any one country in the region with a tradition of making it; on the other hand differentiating it from cheap knock offs also makes sense to me.

The PDO for feta protects a cheese made in Greece that's traditionally called feta. Other countries around the Mediterrannean and in Eastern Europe make similar (but not identical) cheeses but they call it by different names, for example Sirene in Romania (which is made with cow's milk rather than sheep and goat's milk as in Greece).

I don't think it makes sense to mix up the protection for feta with protections for sirene, for example. Sirene should be protected by a PDO specific to its own make, ingredients and characteristics.

Just because lots of cheeses around the area look similar to feta, doesn't mean we can just lump them all together with feta. Otherwise, why not lump Roquefort together with Gorgonzola and Stilton? They're all blue cheeses made in Europe, after all.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#208
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Florida Orange Juice, Vidalia onions, Idaho potatoes, and of course the "Made In USA" stamp.

I'm I right in thinking that 'Florida Orange Juice' has to come from Florida? what law would a company be breaking in the US, if say a company used oranges from a different state than Florida and made Orange juice and labeled it 'Florida Orange Juice' because the company used the same type of oranges or the owner was from florida?

But "Florida Orange Juice" is a trademark of the Florida Department of Citrus. This is a state agency tasked with promoting Florida's members of the citrus industry.

They created and registered the trademark. Before they started using it, the mark did not exist. They funded ad campaigns to spread the trademark, and they license it at no cost to Florida producers of citrus products.

The difference between trademark protection and a PDO is that the PDO seeks to unwind the historical dispersion of language and culture, purportedly for consumer benefit (and certainly there is some benefit) but -- let's be honest -- this is clearly economic protectionism.

Edit: "Florida Orange Juice" is also clearly economic protectionism! Californian (and Brazilian) growers are disadvantaged by the active and ongoing efforts of the FL Dept of Citrus.

But they have a trademark. My objection to PDOs is that they're often re-fighting battles that were lost hundreds of years ago. Historical revisionism promulgated by economically self-interested groups, backed by governments, with the goal of global enforcement, and sold as consumer protection ... is silly when it fails, and abhorrent when it succeeds. IMO!

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#210
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres no such thing as "terroir" the whole concept is bullshit intended to justify the unjustifiable.

then try the real buffalo mozzarella and any other copy you find elsewhere. I am from Naples and I have lived about half of my life in other countries, and in each country I have tried to find a decent local substitute of mozzarella: I couldn't. Maybe it's a secret technique, maybe it's the air, who knows, but the fact remains that the only real mozzarella comes from there.

I agree and I sympathize, but ...

Your preferences and your conditioning bias you to believe that there is only one correct interpretation. It is your favorite, and you can justify that by believing that it is the original and the only proper version. You miss that product when you are away from home.

I feel the same way about some local foods that I grew up with, but I don't support Global Trade Law that would prevent someone else from trying to reproduce (or interpret) the food in question without being required to invent a new name for it.

I think a more equitable (and workable) approach to this problem is to establish organizations whose members a) create defensible trademarks, b) accept memberships from producers who meet quality/regionality/whatever standards, c) promote this differentiation in the market.

I understand that "Champagne" means something special to residents (and economic development groups!) in that region of France. But to the vast bulk of the world, "champagne" is just a product and usually a pretty crappy one.

Buffalo wings, and buffalo mozzarella. Two great tastes that taste great together. You might not think this is an even exchange, but many will disagree, and it's entirely subjective anyway. So I say "Thank you and you're welcome!" :)

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