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Reddit’s disrespectful design

ognjen.io

261–270 of 516 posts

Re: Reddit’s disrespectful design

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These practices are done because it works. Which practices, though? A number of the practices you note (e.g. streamlined signup flow) are not user hostile at all, and others are a mixed bag. (E.g. one could argue that AMP + a properly featured mobile site and 'official' app were necessary steps with a subpar implementation). But when looking specifically at the dark patterns that power users are most likely to comp…

> But when looking specifically at the dark patterns that power users are most likely to complain about, it's unclear that they would help DAU/MAU much, if at all. Casual users might not complain overtly all that much, but they're almost certainly discouraged by many such practices. Power users of sites like Reddit are already hooked. They’re already logged in, already have an app installed, and they don’t see all of…

> It’s the unregistered users and those who aren’t logged in who have to suffer the nags and pop-ups and limitations.

The problem with this strategy is that it's easy to add so many nags that many more users will bounce away from the site than will install the app, or otherwise engage at all. Given what we know about user behavior on the Internet, Reddit is almost certainly on the downward slope of this weird Laffer curve, well beyond the point of "optimally effective" nagging. Add even more, and you become just another Experts-Exchange that no one cares about all that much.

Re: Reddit’s disrespectful design

#262
post #225

Imagine you’re Steve Huffman, Reddit’s CEO and co-founder ( https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3cxedn/i_am_steve_huf... ). What strategy would you propose to your board? For the sake of argument, assume that: - You would prefer not to make your creation frustrating to use. (Of course, the team may think that their changes are better, but let’s assume that’s not the case) - The board cares about ARPU and ARPU grow…

As a product manager, here is what I would do if I was in Steve’s shoes. Instead of employing dark patterns that take advantage of casual user’s trust, I would actually listen to users and evolve the site in the direction users are asking for. Reddit just killed their Santa Program, this year will be it’s last. The Secret Santa program was amazingly popular but perhaps complicated to manage so instead of improving it…

What? More peer to peer activity and make it a marketplace? Then you add in crypto for good measure…

They added chat, and everyone hated it. People aren’t on there to build up yet another social network. What would this marketplace even sell? Is it like a less localized Craigslist?

Re: Reddit’s disrespectful design

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. The old.reddit.com UI is still pretty bad on mobile, but it's the only remotely usable one. The default mobile site goes out of its way to make it difficult to read the thread, while also confusingly merging other threads into the page.

Both old. and i.reddit.com are slowly being left behind by new features and such things. It breaks conversation when new reddit can use one syntax for code blocks and old reddit can't see it like it's supposed to look.

old. now has a new EU cookie banner which, to accept or configure cookies, takes you to the new version. I blocked the banner in my adblocker.

If they're turning off the old reddit anytime soon I'll probably just leave.

Re: Reddit’s disrespectful design

#264
post #207

I was the EM for Reddit's Growth team around this time. I am responsible for / contributed to a few features like the current signup flow, AMP pages, push notifications, email digests, app download interstitials, etc. There was a new product lead who joined with many good ideas, but some of them were dark patterns that I heavily protested. After a few months of this, it was obvious that I was going to be reigned in o…

There's a sucker born every minute.

When I was 10 I bought Pokemon cards, which looking back on, was a huge waste of money, but at least it wasn't all that much money in the end. I was a newbie to the scene, and I got taken advantage of. Lesson learned.

10 years later when phones were just coming into everyone's pockets, a whole new wave of gamers emerged. Game companies could either develop for the previous wave, by building games like Starcraft II, or they could build for the current wave, and build games like Candy Crush.

Gamers who prefer games like Starcraft want to pay once for a game that lasts years and expect perfection. Candy Crush, like the Pokemon cards before it, expected nothing and were willing to spend a bunch of money for ultimately nothing. The business should clearly move to making Candy Crushes. The ROI is insane.

But the more you bleed the users, the more they get fleeced, the more they start to learn, the more they regret. Yesterday's Pokemon cards buyers were todays Starcraft gamers, and today's Candy Crush players are tomorrows expert gamers. You want to build your platform to grow with them. Build a Candy Crush, then build it slightly more complex. In 10 years, they will be ready for Starcraft.

You can continue to seek the bottom of the skill zone, but we had that one wave where adults of all ages were getting new phones and experiencing things that they had never done before. We had that one time where kids were able to ask their parents and their parents were not skilled and did not regret so they did not say no. Using a peak oil metaphor, we've reach peak sucker. We'll never have this opportunity again.

So cutting back to Reddit - Reddit, like Digg and Slashdot and Usenet before it, released to the Starcraft level of the social commentors. They are hard to deal with, they expect everything for nothing, but the quality of their content brought along with it the slightly less expert commentators. Eventually that filtered down and the entire internet was on Reddit. The entire internet was incredible for their ROI.

Digg was ruined because they abandoned the Starcraft commentors. When they left, everyone left with them. Reddit has been smart in this regard, as the old features and the old API still exists, the power users can use power user tools and keep the same experience. But understand, that if given the opportunity to move elsewhere, even somewhere that has less features like say... Hacker News, they will do so. They have done so. If Reddit keeps chasing the bottom of the market, when someone does show up with actual innovations like what Reddit had over Digg, you need to be afraid because just like Digg the site will be dead over-night.

When you should be looking at bringing those casual users into moderate users, you keep trying the dark patterns. But each time you go back to the dark patterns they get weaker and weaker. That strong dark pattern that used to get you millions of dollars now only get you hundreds of thousands. Next week it will be tens of thousands. Your users are developing dark pattern tolerance. You don't yet have a valid competitor, this is exactly when you should be experimenting to disrupt yourself.

Re: Reddit’s disrespectful design

#265
post #228

I can't be alone in just pretending Reddit doesn't exist on mobile. It's weird, I like Reddit a lot, on desktop I post and comment, but on mobile it is so shabby that I just ignore it instead of seeing if it can be made bearable by being logged in to an app.

Why do all this complaining and ignoring instead of just downloading an app like "rif is fun", logging in once, and then having great reddit experience on mobile? Everyone here is aware of the dark patterns on reddit. We know they're not going anywhere. We continue to read reddit posts every day, so why not make it easy on yourself instead of endless misery and complaining about things that you know won't change?

That's a fair comment. I don't think my comment reflects a fully rational decision and I could just use an app and log in. I don't need to have Reddit on my phone, it's entertainment I could take or leave.

However I do have sympathy for people who don't have any interest in becoming engaged users, and just want to see a useful comment thread for some particular info without all the hassle. The web is full of gates, walls and popups, and we don't all want to download the app and create an account for every site.

Re: Reddit’s disrespectful design

#267

Surely the most annoying thing is the endless requests to download the app. So irritating! I refuse to download it just because they insist so hard. Reddit is the most basic site ever, there is absolutely no need for me to have an app.

Not Reddit per se but I find it hard to wrap my head around the app thing for Reddit or similar. HTML5/CSS3 is so sufficient for this... The web gave birth to an economy going away from itself. And. Ow everything is there twice or thrice. Surely there's some good economical or political reason it. Maybe systemic (any large market will create redundancies.. I don't know) Yay to old.reddit.com

> Surely there's some good economical or political reason it.

Location tracking

Re: Reddit’s disrespectful design

#268

Does anyone else want to rant about Reddit’s AMP pages that show up on Google? Oh I could go on about it… The managers at Reddit, in their infinite wisdom, decided that the preferred experience of a Google user searching for content on reddit should redirected to their wonky app. And if they don’t have the app, they should be punished with modals upon modals. “Reddit looks better in the app!” Oh, you disagree? Well p…

The Reddit mobile web experience is so obviously bad that I can only assume it's intentional. There must be some huge incentive for Reddit to push users toward the mobile app. Most likely, the app allows for higher or more accurate monthly active user counts and enables more targeted advertising, both of which are critical to increasing advertising revenues. Reddit is in a difficult spot because they're mostly an ad-…

Honestly I'm pretty glad that Reddit's UI is so terrible. I don't need more places to waste time on the internet.

Re: Reddit’s disrespectful design

#269
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both old. and i.reddit.com are slowly being left behind by new features and such things. It breaks conversation when new reddit can use one syntax for code blocks and old reddit can't see it like it's supposed to look.

old. now has a new EU cookie banner which, to accept or configure cookies, takes you to the new version. I blocked the banner in my adblocker. If they're turning off the old reddit anytime soon I'll probably just leave.

There are unofficial front-ends available, such as Teddit:

https://teddit.net/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25310206

Re: Reddit’s disrespectful design

#270
post #225

Imagine you’re Steve Huffman, Reddit’s CEO and co-founder ( https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3cxedn/i_am_steve_huf... ). What strategy would you propose to your board? For the sake of argument, assume that: - You would prefer not to make your creation frustrating to use. (Of course, the team may think that their changes are better, but let’s assume that’s not the case) - The board cares about ARPU and ARPU grow…

As a product manager, here is what I would do if I was in Steve’s shoes. Instead of employing dark patterns that take advantage of casual user’s trust, I would actually listen to users and evolve the site in the direction users are asking for. Reddit just killed their Santa Program, this year will be it’s last. The Secret Santa program was amazingly popular but perhaps complicated to manage so instead of improving it…

What's worse with Secret Santa is they didn't have to take it over in the first place. Community / active users ran it. Which is what (feeling like used to) makes Reddit special. AND they aren't giving the keys to the exchange back to the original creator...

Now starting over in a new user run sub but it is super sh*ty behavior.

They tried the marketplace idea too with reddit gold etc. wasn't that also originally a co-opted user created joke like silver? and they seem to be changing that too? though I can't find the mod post so maybe I'm not remembering correct?

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