Earlier quoted context omitted.
> As long as Debian separates between distributed binaries, and -dev packages which include all source codes and headers - I would not recommend it for software development. Is that the case for some specific languages? -dev packages for C and other compiled libraries do not include the full source code of the library. Normally they only include the headers, pkgconfig, and similar files. > Libraries are not upgradeab…
> Got some examples where it's a problem and not an actual dependency issue? Try to recompile mesa or say, just the demos (aka glxgears) :) Worst case scenario for Debian dependencies.
DUR: The Debian User Repository
81–90 of 103 posts
Re: DUR: The Debian User Repository
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you would rather have them waste that exact same amount of space on every computer, just so you don’t have to download it when you want to build a package?
> So you would rather have them waste that exact same amount of space on every computer, just so you don’t have to download it when you want to build a package? Header files are literally less than a couple kB per package, and Megabyte-sized headers are the exception for huge frameworks like QT or GACL. Arch packages don't ship the source codes, only the binaries (.so files) and headers (.h files). Overall, the /usr/…
Neither do Debian's -dev packages.
Re: DUR: The Debian User Repository
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
Using the 80/20 rule, most AUR packages are simply the build script ("PKGBUILD") instructions and perhaps a patch if required, etc. (or say adding a missing .desktop file). The process involves your AUR tool (I use "pikaur") downloading them, then executing the build instructions _locally_ on your device. So your desktop is actually the one downloading the real source code and compiling it, then installing it. The 20…
Thanks! That makes a lot of sense. I’ll have to do a deep dive this weekend.
After getting that downloaded, compiled and installed then try a sample simple AUR package like "downgrade" - `pikaur -S downgrade` - to get feel for it. https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/downgrade/ It really is kinda that simple, the rest is just learning the basic "how are Arch packages actually made?" which is a good thing to learn in general.
Re: DUR: The Debian User Repository
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would agree that Debian packaging is unnecessarily complicated. The raw stuff is tedious, so various wrappers have been created. In the wild you see a mixture of wrappers and lower level packaging, making everything more complicated for the occasional user. I started with Debian (not as a packager, but just as a technical user who occasionally wants to do his own stuff). Years later I was forced to use rpm and was…
I can't say I agree with that conclusion, if you're just applying a patch then you don't need to edit the low level packaging. It doesn't affect the occasional user at all.
A well-written tutorial will explain that to you quickly, but there's definitely more friction than with PKGBUILD files where you can pretty much just look at the contents of the file and edit it directly without second thoughts.
Re: DUR: The Debian User Repository
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
As I said, init scripts are only used if there's no unit file. If there's a systemd unit, the init script is ignored.
If there's a systemd unit, the init script is redundant, confusing, and possibly dangerous. It should not exist in the first place, perhaps except as a thin wrapper around the corresponding systemd command.
Re: DUR: The Debian User Repository
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
Linux does need more package managers. Why? Because I like trying out new package managers and they don't harm people since they're not required to try or use them.
>they don't harm people since they're not required to try or use them For users, no. For devs, there absolutely is pressure to support and maintain multiple distribution methods for Linux users.
Re: DUR: The Debian User Repository
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have the similar experience to the OP. The last time I had 700 packages or so updating, pressed Ctrl+C (apt or brew never left my system in a broken state after Ctrl+C) and the system no longer worked after reboot. Had to update all packages via a bootable Arch image on a USB to fix it. Also had KDE and Gnome behave weirdly after update to the point of having to reboot immediately – never happened on Ubuntu LTS. Ar…
> I had 700 packages or so updating You absolutely ignored your Arch system for far too long and most likely missed important News notifications that manual actions were required, it happens now and again. With updating 700 packages at once you've just dug yourself a hole - Arch is not a system you can ignore for that long, by design it's always changing to reflect the newest upstream changes to software. As I posted…
Arch's demanding nature with respect to being routinely updated follows directly from the fact that its package manager is stateful and unsophisticated (e.g., its dependency resolver is incomplete (will fail even when solutions are available, because dependency resolution is NP-complete and 'gotta go fast')).
It's totally fair to call this an Arch/pacman defect. Part of it is also lack of enduring hacks like Debian and derivatives use (long-lived transitional packages), which is a choice by Arch developers. A glance at the online Arch package listing and some example .PKGINFO files indicates that Pacman also doesn't support metadata like 'provides' and 'replaces' in DEB and RPM, which means the developers have fewer tools at their disposal for dealing with transitions like that, even when they want to.
Clearly many users don't mind all these tradeoffs, but others who shy away from Arch after experiences like that mentioned in the GP comment are totally right, as a matter of fact, to blame the design of the package manager for their woes.
We're not looking at the price of bleeding edge packages or a rolling release. We're looking at the price of 'keep[ing] it simple, stupid'.
Edited to add: the existence of the DUR shows that Debian probably doesn't fall on the right side of the complexity tradeoff for the purpose of maximizing user contributions. The same users who contribute to it could also create their own Debian packages, but they don't, presumably in part because it seems harder to get into. (It's not that bad if you use debhelper, but it is also clearly a crufty system that has evolved this way and that over time.)
So Arch's philosophy also clearly has other strengths. But imo we shouldn't give it a pass on the kind of fragility outlined in the GP.
Re: DUR: The Debian User Repository
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It's so much harder to build your own software packages on Debian. Even patching an existing Debian package can be painful, and having to write your own packages is even worse. I can't say that's been my experience, once I figured out dh_make [0] that made it pretty easy by handling most of the boilerplate. Building an existing package is as simple as doing `apt source` and then `dpkg-buildpackage` to rebuild it (yo…
> I can't say that's been my experience, once I figured out [dozens of moving parts] That's the whole point. Nobody doubts that the Debian tooling works (it evidently does), but the learning curve to get to that point is massively steeper and longer. Makepkg you can figure out in an hour, at most an afternoon for the finer details like custom patches; reliable Debian packaging takes days or weeks to understand set up…
Recreating the patched packages and setting up my own PPA for them was pretty much trivial. It did not take a whole day to figure out.
The Debian system is a little clunky, but it is not hard. If you're a user of Ubuntu or Fedora or openSUSE whatever, learning how to create DEB and RPM source packages and upload them to OBS or Launchpad is way less work than setting up Arch for the first time.
Re: DUR: The Debian User Repository
#89Linux does not need more package managers. It creates nothing but support burdens and busywork for developers (yes, user repositories too). I don't understand what people expect to achieve by further fragmenting a minority OS that makes up only 3% of Desktop users.
Re: DUR: The Debian User Repository
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Your anecdotal failures First of all how are these MY failures and not failures of the Arch ecosystem? Running `pacman -Syu` on any given Friday should NOT leave you with a machine that no longer boots. Installing a very stable software such as fucking python3 shouldn't break litereally everything else that is linked to same lib. Everything is anecdotal, but trying to use that to dimiss literally OS breaking inciden…
> Running `pacman -Syu` on any given Friday should NOT leave you with a machine that no longer boots Says who? That's pretty much not what Arch tries to guarantee at all. You're at the very least supposed to read the announcements and you should upgrade often, as otherwise the end result is undefined. Some distros like Debian support partial updates, Arch very explicitly does not. If you use Arch the way it's intende…
>you should upgrade often
But you litereally started by saying that upgrading any given Friday is not quranteed to leave you with working OS