Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New type of ancient human discovered in Israel

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 111 posts

Re: New type of ancient human discovered in Israel

#81

Post by shahar2k »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #10
shahar2k wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought a big part of that was that birds have big variation between juveniles and adults, something that mammalians have less of... (let alone primates) Looking at a time when multiple hominid groups lived in relative isolation over large spans of time, admittedly without expert knowledge, it seems to make sense to me that there would be quite a bit of variation of "species" (though I also suspect the various spec…

> I thought a big part of that was that birds have big variation between juveniles and adults, something that mammalians have less of... You should see what insects do. It just isn't possible, using fossil records alone, to identify whether two insects belong to the same or different species.

yeah and that's what is behind the idea that some "different" dinosaur species (aka birds) are actually juvanile / adult versions of the same species

totally amazing that insects basically rearrange themselves on near celular level though at certain points in their lifespan

Re: New type of ancient human discovered in Israel

#82

Post by shahar2k »

sammalloy wrote: post #23

> There are several human fossils from the caves of Qesem, Zuttiyeh and Tabun that date back to that time that we could not attribute to any specific known group of humans. Are there any geologists or experts who can explain the difference between these caves in Israel and the ones in Europe and North America? They all seem incredibly different.

I'm not a geologist, but at least in terms of the geography Israel is a chokepoint between africa and the landmasses north of it if you are on foot. It's why historically it was such a trade hub in the ancient world(not to mention several mediterranean and a red sea port also within relatively short distance of each other)

I wonder if there was a time when there was an easier land route leading to more northern climates (the theory that at some point in the nearish past the mediterranean was dry makes me wonder what kind of flooded fossils lie at the bottom too)

Re: New type of ancient human discovered in Israel

#83

Post by [deleted] »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #69
dsr_ wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans being less than 1.2m tall is extremely common, and I will bet there was a significant period of your own life in which that criterion applied to you. (edit: and you should not be surprised at the number of "new species" which are just juveniles of a known species.)

>> Humans being less than 1.2m tall is extremely common, and I will bet there was a significant period of your own life in which that criterion applied to you. And how where their teeth at the time?

[deleted]

Re: New type of ancient human discovered in Israel

#84

Post by gunapologist99 »

Arnt wrote: post #15
kypro wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it possible to indentify a new species from just a skull fragment and jawbone? Would there need to be multiple similar bones to rule out the possiblity of a genetic outlier? And even then it's not like there isn't fairly significant variance in bone structure between different populations of human today. Can we really say from two bits of bone that it's a different species? I have no knowledge of anthropology…

This isn't a criminal trial, with failsafe rules about doubt. There are very few generic outliers. They do exist, but at the same time, the chance that the next person you meet will be 2.40m tall is insignificant. The argument is stronger for the past, because generic outliers tend to have worse health than the average and have worse chances of reaching adulthood, so if you find a part of the skeleton of a single adu…

Stature or size of teeth is really not a good measurement, especially to declare a new species!

Humans come in various shapes and sizes. In fact, given that the remains were found in a sinkhole, small stature might have something to do with their inability to escape.

For example, "little people" have adult teeth:

https://www.lpaonline.org/

Also, there are several types of common, modern humans that then to have very short statures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_peoples

On the other end of the scale,

https://stillunfold.com/people/10-real-life-giants-known-for...

Re: New type of ancient human discovered in Israel

#85

Post by gunapologist99 »

grawprog wrote: post #73
kypro wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it possible to indentify a new species from just a skull fragment and jawbone? Would there need to be multiple similar bones to rule out the possiblity of a genetic outlier? And even then it's not like there isn't fairly significant variance in bone structure between different populations of human today. Can we really say from two bits of bone that it's a different species? I have no knowledge of anthropology…

When I was in school, one of our midterms for wildlife biology was to take a tooth or some bone fragments and describe as much as we could about the animal's habitat, food sources, overall health before death, roughly how old the animal was and a bunch of other things. It's actually surprising how much information a single tooth or piece of bone can actually give you.

How would you know if you were correct?

Re: New type of ancient human discovered in Israel

#86

Post by gunapologist99 »

shahar2k wrote: post #6
someperson wrote: post #5

We'll see if the inflation in ancient human species stands up to scrutiny. Here's a great TED Talk about dinosaur species being mistakenly identified because 'scientists have egos': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQa11RMCeSI&t=102s (well worth a watch, it's a great story)

I thought a big part of that was that birds have big variation between juveniles and adults, something that mammalians have less of... (let alone primates) Looking at a time when multiple hominid groups lived in relative isolation over large spans of time, admittedly without expert knowledge, it seems to make sense to me that there would be quite a bit of variation of "species" (though I also suspect the various spec…

Interesting point. In the process of adopting a pure-bred Slovakian-line GSD, I've learned that German Shepherd Dogs didn't exist at all until the early 1900's, and the modern Slovakian line (which is related to the DDR line, which is when the two lines became rapidly and visibly diversified when the Iron Curtain divided Germany from the late 40's to the late 80's) is in danger of fading away altogether.

And that was only in 40 years -- admittedly with intentional breeding, but it's conceivable that changes in diet, parasites, tumultuous periods of history, seismic changes, or even war/pillaging/violence could rapidly change the makeup of an entire continent within just a few decades. In fact, we've seen that in very recent history.

Re: New type of ancient human discovered in Israel

#87

Post by shahar2k »

nir wrote: post #61
stormdennis wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jewish communities lived in what are now Arab countries for thousands of years. The fact that they either left or were forced out only after the zionist settler-colonisation of Palestine commenced does not seem to be related in your mind?

So let's say you're right and Zionists are all colonizers (of which nation?), does it justify deporting Jews who as you say lived in these parts of the Mideast for thousands of years?

every time I think about walking into these kinds of conversations ... I realize that I would much rather not have mud on my shoes

There's a concept in anthropology called the paradox of the periphery, where people who are farther from their origin / homeland tend to get statistically more religious or extreme in their relation to that homeland....

I feel like that applies to people who are farther from the issue in the whole israel situation. everyone living or from there tends to mention nuance and complexity and everyone farther away just calls it an "obvious" issue with simple solutions.

Re: New type of ancient human discovered in Israel

#88

Post by grawprog »

gunapologist99 wrote: post #85
grawprog wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in school, one of our midterms for wildlife biology was to take a tooth or some bone fragments and describe as much as we could about the animal's habitat, food sources, overall health before death, roughly how old the animal was and a bunch of other things. It's actually surprising how much information a single tooth or piece of bone can actually give you.

How would you know if you were correct?

The teachers who marked us knew where the specimens came from...

Re: New type of ancient human discovered in Israel

#89

Post by mellosouls »

Interestingly the BBC Radio News actually led on the "Dragon Man" find mentioned in the OP:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57432104

PR departments competing, I find it difficult to believe two important different ancestors published on the same day for any other reason?

Post reply on HN