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You should probably quit your job

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Re: You should probably quit your job

#41

Post by Udo »

ams6110 wrote: post #37
Udo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they are, I debated enough to recognize that. I even debated with medical professionals and scientists to this effect. They think it's "unnatural" (whatever that means). For a short while there, my post had a negative score. They don't like to engage, but they are opposed.

So suppose you can keep old people healthy, strong, mentally sharp, etc. at what point do they get out of the way? 100 years? 110? 150? You must see that at some point the population becomes unsustainable if the old never die off.

Somehow it must be possible to talk about the extension of productive life without people trailing off into condescending statements about population control or throwing hissy fits about the drummed up ecological aspects of immortality as if this was the most pressing concern right now. First of all, we're not even talking about making people live longer, just keeping them in shape for longer. There is absolutely zero moral outrage to be had about this one, except maybe if you want to shout something about old people taking our jobs, pointlessly and morbidly arguing that without death, disability and general human misery the global economy would suffer.

Second, of course this kind of research eventually arrives at measures that prolong (productive) life, which gives traditional people even more to scream about. We will devour the earth! Never mind falling birth rates in industrial nations which would doubtlessly be the only countries experiencing those extended lifespans.

However, my argument is more basic than that. Because, you guessed it, I'm all for longevity research as well. It's a basic ethical appeal to not waste perfectly good minds to decay and oblivion. Conjuring up economic problems that may or may not be even remotely applicable to this type of future society seems callous and short-sighted to me.

Re: You should probably quit your job

#42

Post by Udo »

sanderjd wrote: post #38
Udo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they are, I debated enough to recognize that. I even debated with medical professionals and scientists to this effect. They think it's "unnatural" (whatever that means). For a short while there, my post had a negative score. They don't like to engage, but they are opposed.

Well, here's why I'm skeptical (or let's just say opposed if you prefer) - overpopulation is already a problem, and substantially lengthening life expectancy will only make that worse. Basically, I'm afraid we're closer to solving our medical problems than we are to solving our planet-supporting-our-population problems. If we solve the latter in tandem, then I'm on board. Or are you only talking about quality-of-life…

Yes, as a first step, I'm only talking about extending the high-quality-of-life period for everyone. And I know it is possible, because we're already at it and there is no magical barrier stopping us from doing this on a biological level. I also don't believe that "we shouldn't do it because it makes us less sad when dying people have wrinkles and white hair" is an ethically valid argument against this kind of research.

There are two viewpoints that make any further discussion pointless. One would be the belief in any sort of afterlife, and the other one is the conviction that human consciousness has at best a very limited intrinsic value and can hence be discarded without further consequence. If you don't hold one of these beliefs, I wager there is a high degree of probability that you basically agree with people like me that we have to do something and that things cannot should how they are now.

Of course, this kind of technology will over time lead to drastically longer lives as well. When it comes to aging, there is no way to do the quality thing without the quantity thing.

Overpopulation is not a problem in wealthy, industrial countries. These countries will always have advanced tech before everyone else. So, for example, if I were to live 200 years in Germany, producing maybe 0.8 children over the entire time, I'm not crowding up the countryside. Sure, I do require resources, as does everyone else, including some Bangladeshi guy who died at 35 because of some horrible tropical disease und who nevertheless multiplied by a factor of 20 over the same 200 years.

We need new and sustainable technologies to cope with both corner cases anyway. This idea that progress has to stop now is a horrible mistake. We left the realm of our fellow animal sisters and brothers to embark on a journey of knowledge and discovery. In the course of this endeavor, we became powerful individual minds capable of achieving pretty much anything. Well, we're halfway there now, we can't just stop suddenly, that would be the end of the race. We have to move all the way through to the other side.

Re: You should probably quit your job

#43

Post by GotToStartup »

In a way, this article reminds me of Paulo Coelho’s The Alchemist. The journey of a shepherd boy who leaves his world to discover the treasures of his personal legend.

"They represent the Promised Land where, one day, we'll start doing something meaningful."

If you don’t have an urge to go out and do something different than what you’re doing now, then this article probably doesn’t apply to you. I think It’s more related to people who say you’re going to one day start your own company, or work for a startup, or “travel to Montreal” but immediate problems always get in the way. You don’t have to change the world necessarily, just be happy and follow your dreams NOW because life is too short.

Re: You should probably quit your job

#44

Post by scythe »

It's not about the quitting, it's about the charity or the startup or whatever. You can run away from things all your life, but you'll never get to a place called 'there'; you'll find that everywhere you go is still 'here'. You have to go towards what you want, not away from what you don't.

Re: You should probably quit your job

#45

Post by CapitalistCartr »

kore wrote: post #18
Mz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who feel some overwhelming need to Change The World are basically projecting: Their "world" (internal mental landscape, personal life, whatever) is in desperate need of an overhaul. (Edit: I know because this was me, say, 20 to 30 years ago. Then I fixed my personal crap. I no longer feel like lecturing everyone else about what they "should" be doing.) I won't even read the piece. I skimmed it. This is the clo…

While I agree with some of your sentiments about the author, it feels like you're doing a bit of the same by claiming that everybody who wants to change the world are doing so only because they're projecting. I say so with some defensiveness because one of my greatest goals in life is to do just that, to make a difference, as cliche as it is. And yes, I've quit my old job so I could pursue it. We all look around this…

The difference is between saying, "I feel a desire to change the World," and saying, "Everyone should do as I do because everyone feels as I do."

Re: You should probably quit your job

#46

Post by int3rnaut »

ww520 wrote: post #8

Although it's tempting to just quit to pursue your dream, I would advise against it until you have put your financial life in order and save up some money. It's called a fuck-you fund for a reason.

Good point, it's interesting to note the 2 people referenced in the article were fairly well off--I mean one was a manager at Microsoft.

The idea that you need financial success to do this though is a bit strange. I think it's easier to just quit your job when you're poor from an outside perspective because you're not giving up very much in terms of the grand scheme--you'd throw away a penny before you'd throw away a $20 bill right, but speaking from experience when you're poor, these shit jobs mean a whole helluva lot.

Re: You should probably quit your job

#47

Post by orangecat »

Udo wrote: post #9
Tichy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That promised land of perfect health at high age is not here yet, though. It's a nice perspective, but no guarantee.

That's right, it depends on the priorities we set as a society for this kind of thing. Not just living longer, but extending the enjoyable and productive period of a person's life. Of course, I'm in the minority (otherwise I wouldn't have gotten modded into oblivion while the guy who says that he doesn't want to have an impact on the world is praised and congratulated) but I still firmly believe it's worthwhile. What…

What I don't get is why many people are so violently opposed to this. I'm not even talking about transhumanism or anything as controversial as that, just preventing "old" people from degenerating.

I think it's an Ugh Field: http://lesswrong.com/lw/21b/ugh_fields/. The prospect of having your body and mind slowly fall apart is appalling, and most people really really don't want to think about it, to the point of dismissing possible solutions.

Which reminds me, it's about time for another donation to SENS.

Re: You should probably quit your job

#48

Post by btcoal »

fabjan wrote: post #23
Tichy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your goal in life is essentially to relax?

Mine is, or I don't really know. What's the problem?

I just have never been able to understand how some people can look at all the challenges in the world and not feel a need to solve one of them.

But, I admit, this is the majority of most people. Of the minority of people that really feel compelled to "make a dent in the universe" (Steve Jobs) the majority of them are probably stuck in meaningless jobs. This article speaks to this group.

Re: You should probably quit your job

#49

Post by Udo »

orangecat wrote: post #47
Udo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right, it depends on the priorities we set as a society for this kind of thing. Not just living longer, but extending the enjoyable and productive period of a person's life. Of course, I'm in the minority (otherwise I wouldn't have gotten modded into oblivion while the guy who says that he doesn't want to have an impact on the world is praised and congratulated) but I still firmly believe it's worthwhile. What…

What I don't get is why many people are so violently opposed to this. I'm not even talking about transhumanism or anything as controversial as that, just preventing "old" people from degenerating. I think it's an Ugh Field: http://lesswrong.com/lw/21b/ugh_fields/ . The prospect of having your body and mind slowly fall apart is appalling, and most people really really don't want to think about it, to the point of dism…

That's an interesting thought, thanks for sharing this link! I never thought about it this way before.

Re: You should probably quit your job

#50

Post by jwingy »

GotToStartup wrote: post #43

In a way, this article reminds me of Paulo Coelho’s The Alchemist. The journey of a shepherd boy who leaves his world to discover the treasures of his personal legend. "They represent the Promised Land where, one day, we'll start doing something meaningful." If you don’t have an urge to go out and do something different than what you’re doing now, then this article probably doesn’t apply to you. I think It’s more rel…

I completely agree with this sentiment (and I love The Alchemist). I think it's equally virtuous for someone who has little aspirations but to be happy with the life they've been given as it is for someone who wants to achieve a lot in his/her life. Isn't the goal in the end to simply find what makes you happy and live it?
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