What G+ is really about (pst it's not social) • Hacker News Board

Re: What G+ is really about (pst it's not social)

#31

Post by JanezStupar » Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 11:33 AM UTC

mtts wrote: post #29

JanezStupar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the end if ads are not effective, you won't be getting money from the advertisers anymore. Marketers can't know in advance which marketing channels will work - so they kinda carpet bomb with their campaigns. However once they start getting data, they sure as hell kill of the channels that don't work. Unethical behavior does not scale in business, no matter how much your calculations rationalize it. In the…

As much as I'd like to think you're right, you're probably wrong. The advertising industry is making very real money, which gives people an incentive to keep it going even though it delivers close to nothing. Why do people buy Coca Cola? Is it because of the tremendously expensive advertisements they put out or is it because the stuff is ubiquitous, tastes fairly good and is usually not surrounded by a lot of competi…

I was talking of marketing in general. Advertising is only a single branch of marketing.

And its obvious that Coca-Cola's marketing has been waaay better than Pepsi's. And also I believe that Pepsi is quite comfortable in its #2 position. As is Burger King in its own.

Don't forget, that second biggest player in a huge market is usually still a friggin big behemoth. And that for Pepsi and BK being #2 is a core business strategy. Less upside, but also less downside. These companies basically use their bigger competitors as a hedge against market change.

Re: What G+ is really about (pst it's not social)

#32

Post by colomon » Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 11:35 AM UTC

mtts wrote: post #29

JanezStupar wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the end if ads are not effective, you won't be getting money from the advertisers anymore. Marketers can't know in advance which marketing channels will work - so they kinda carpet bomb with their campaigns. However once they start getting data, they sure as hell kill of the channels that don't work. Unethical behavior does not scale in business, no matter how much your calculations rationalize it. In the…

As much as I'd like to think you're right, you're probably wrong. The advertising industry is making very real money, which gives people an incentive to keep it going even though it delivers close to nothing. Why do people buy Coca Cola? Is it because of the tremendously expensive advertisements they put out or is it because the stuff is ubiquitous, tastes fairly good and is usually not surrounded by a lot of competi…

Errr.... you have occasionally been in convenience stores and supermarkets, yes? Restaurants that serve both Coke and Pepsi are rare, yes, but stores where you can buy either are an everyday thing for most of us...

Re: What G+ is really about (pst it's not social)

#33

Post by mtts » Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 11:51 AM UTC

colomon wrote: post #32

mtts wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I'd like to think you're right, you're probably wrong. The advertising industry is making very real money, which gives people an incentive to keep it going even though it delivers close to nothing. Why do people buy Coca Cola? Is it because of the tremendously expensive advertisements they put out or is it because the stuff is ubiquitous, tastes fairly good and is usually not surrounded by a lot of competi…

Errr.... you have occasionally been in convenience stores and supermarkets, yes? Restaurants that serve both Coke and Pepsi are rare, yes, but stores where you can buy either are an everyday thing for most of us...

I'm guessing here, but I don't think the bulk of cola purchases are made in convenience stores and supermarkets.

Re: What G+ is really about (pst it's not social)

#34

Post by officemonkey » Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 11:56 AM UTC

ulvund wrote: post #6

On Facebook you buy ads for ~$1+ because you can set target demographic to something as specfic as "women; 42-47 years old; looking for relationships with other women; with a degree in biology or computer science; attened Harvard; Works at IBM; who likes horseback riding or skiing" Imagine if google knew BOTH your search term and your complete personal history. Then the ad price and conversion would increase enormous…

I just thought of something... With target demographics like that Facebook would be an excellent way to look for prospective mates.

Re: What G+ is really about (pst it's not social)

#35

Post by mtts » Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 12:00 PM UTC

JanezStupar wrote: post #31

mtts wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I'd like to think you're right, you're probably wrong. The advertising industry is making very real money, which gives people an incentive to keep it going even though it delivers close to nothing. Why do people buy Coca Cola? Is it because of the tremendously expensive advertisements they put out or is it because the stuff is ubiquitous, tastes fairly good and is usually not surrounded by a lot of competi…

I was talking of marketing in general. Advertising is only a single branch of marketing. And its obvious that Coca-Cola's marketing has been waaay better than Pepsi's. And also I believe that Pepsi is quite comfortable in its #2 position. As is Burger King in its own. Don't forget, that second biggest player in a huge market is usually still a friggin big behemoth. And that for Pepsi and BK being #2 is a core busines…

Ok. I guess I was confused because the grand parent talked about advertising (Google's targeted ads).

Marketing in general, I agree, has some non-bullshit aspects to it. Not many, though.

But certainly the marketing that causes Coca Cola to be sold in way, way more places than Pepsi has been very effective.

Re: What G+ is really about (pst it's not social)

#36

Post by tdoggette » Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 12:11 PM UTC

skarayan wrote: post #30

cdavid wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not convinced it is that useful to have explicitly targeted audiences for advertisement. It may be better to understand and interpret an ad campaign, but generally, what works best when doing statistical prediction is not what is the most intuitive. Also, even though your example is obviously not meant to be taken as is, it shows that targeted demographics quickly don't have a lot of data behind them. Successful…

"I think the value of the so called social graph for advertising is overestimated." I disagree, for certain businesses it is more beneficial then Adwords. I have had really good experiences with Facebook Ads.

I would guess that you were initially downvoted for a lack of specificity.

Re: What G+ is really about (pst it's not social)

#37

Post by redxaxder » Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 12:42 PM UTC

cdavid wrote: post #12

ulvund wrote: post #6

On Facebook you buy ads for ~$1+ because you can set target demographic to something as specfic as "women; 42-47 years old; looking for relationships with other women; with a degree in biology or computer science; attened Harvard; Works at IBM; who likes horseback riding or skiing" Imagine if google knew BOTH your search term and your complete personal history. Then the ad price and conversion would increase enormous…

I am not convinced it is that useful to have explicitly targeted audiences for advertisement. It may be better to understand and interpret an ad campaign, but generally, what works best when doing statistical prediction is not what is the most intuitive. Also, even though your example is obviously not meant to be taken as is, it shows that targeted demographics quickly don't have a lot of data behind them. Successful…

> "I am not convinced it is that useful to have explicitly targeted audiences for advertisement. It may be better to understand and interpret an ad campaign, but generally, what works best when doing statistical prediction is not what is the most intuitive."

If you've collected marketing data that tells you your conversion rate among pet owners is 2% when your conversion rate among the general public is 1%, then you know that every ad you show to pet owners is going to have twice the impact on your bottom line.

Ad targeting enables you to collect this kind of data and to exploit it once you have it. If you find the right audience, your advertising dollars can go more than twice as far.

Re: What G+ is really about (pst it's not social)

#38

Post by tokenadult » Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 12:45 PM UTC

JanezStupar wrote: post #23

rachelbythebay wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says it's about effectiveness of the ad? It might just be effectiveness of getting money from the advertisers. More data means you can do more hand-waving to say that this ad will be the one that really really reaches people this time.

Because in the end if ads are not effective, you won't be getting money from the advertisers anymore. Marketers can't know in advance which marketing channels will work - so they kinda carpet bomb with their campaigns. However once they start getting data, they sure as hell kill of the channels that don't work. Unethical behavior does not scale in business, no matter how much your calculations rationalize it. In the…

The classic statement on advertising is attributed to John Wanamaker (1838 - 1922), a businessman who pioneered department stores in the United States: "Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half." As long as tools to analyze which advertising money works and which doesn't in an overall advertising campaign leave room for hand-waving, merchants will spend too much on the advertising arms race.

Re: What G+ is really about (pst it's not social)

#39

Post by radarsat1 » Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 12:53 PM UTC

> "do you know how often people still email documents / photos / spreadsheets?"

Great, so G+ is yet another attempt to get people to stop using common communications standards like email and instead break the internet up into a set of distinct one-provider-oriented services that can't talk to each other?

Re: What G+ is really about (pst it's not social)

#40

Post by s00pcan » Thu, Jul 14, 2011, 1:11 PM UTC

radarsat1 wrote: post #39

> "do you know how often people still email documents / photos / spreadsheets?" Great, so G+ is yet another attempt to get people to stop using common communications standards like email and instead break the internet up into a set of distinct one-provider-oriented services that can't talk to each other?

No, the goal is to make it not matter what service you're using.