A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#931

Post by CRConrad » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 8:18 AM UTC

jhgb wrote: post #668

lotu wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is defined by the people who speak it, not by some authority. If people are using “les” than it is part of Spanish.

> Language is defined by the people who speak it, not by some authority. This may be true in case of English, but not necessarily in case of many national languages.

> > Language is defined by the people who speak it, not by some authority.

> This may be true in case of English, but not necessarily in case of many national languages.

Counterexample: The German Rechtschreibreform of 1996 was mainly retracted after a decade of popular resistance. Seems even languages that are ostensibly “regulated by a central authority” in the end follow the will of those who use the language.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography_reform_of_1...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#932

Post by CRConrad » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 8:26 AM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #456

mike00632 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you insist on calling that person by the wrong name even though you know it's not what they prefer? That seems like a pretty good example of creating a toxic work environment and you should be fired over it.

It would depend on the specifics. There is a difference between harassing someone and not deferring to their request on the basis that you don't agree with it (however misguided you may be). Conflating these two things is precisely why there's a backlash against CRT et al. from otherwise left-leaning individuals.

> There is a difference between harassing someone and not deferring to their request on the basis that you don't agree with it (however misguided you may be).

There is? What is it?

In a couple of child comments you agree with some other commenter that it's “very subtle”... I'd argue that of course it is; most non-existent things are. Before rejoicing in your sophisticated ability to detect oh-so-subtle differences, please make sure there is something to detect in the first place. One of the best ways to make sure one has got something right is to explain it to others. So: What difference?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#933

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 8:37 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #798

recursive wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't think of it as an ideology. I mean, maybe it is, but it doesn't seem at all bizarre. I'm not really aware of the details, but I'd be hard-pressed to name a difference between the two. I don't (think I) have a position on the issue.

But trans means switching from one side of the binary to the other, while dysphoria means "unease or dissatisfaction" which is not at all the same. One can easily be uneasy or dissatisfied with one's perceived gender identity yet not want to switch to the other side of the binary. What about agender people, or people who just don't like gender at all? I certainly remember as a teen being unhappy with the constraints…

There is a semantic shift taking place in the scientific community regarding the use of the prefix trans when referring to sex (physical anatomy) reassignment as a treatment in gender affirmative care.

Unfortunately, politics keeps interfering with the word choices of scientists.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#934

Post by sirmike_ » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 8:52 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #863

handrous wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe th…

Agree with you given my experience. Kids question many things (religion, cultural norms, fashion norms, etc) and gender is now something that one can question, so it happens. And why not? People have been wrestling with gender roles for centuries, from questions of royal succession to whether women could inherit property or not to suffrage. Yet gender roles continue to be rather prescriptive. What intelligent kid wou…

This is it. Wrap it up. Shows over. This is all that a parent needs. Fin. -30-

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#935

Post by raxxorrax » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 8:59 AM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #678

swebs wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

54 percent of Americans believe "whether a person is a man or a woman is determined at birth". There is a wide partisan divide with 80 percent of Republicans agreeing (so probably not radical feminists) and only 34 percent of democrats agreeing. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/08/transgender...

Polls have a way of shifting rapidly. People put down what they think they're supposed to put down. See how fast support for gay rights tilted as more people came out. Most people weren't really committed to homophobia, but they thought they were expected to seem to believe certain things. There's a name for the phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance

you think universities focusing on gender are affected by this?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#936

Post by raxxorrax » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 9:02 AM UTC

nec4b wrote: post #926

dmje wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more. The airtime on this topic is insane. People's email signatures filled with their pronouns. The anger. The division. I get it's an emotive conversation but then so are gay rights, gender rights, race rights, democratic rights, inequality, and about a gazillion other topics. That's not belittling trans as an issue, but it's so incredibly noisy. IMO the wider question here is nothing to do with tran…

"I'm as left wing as they come, but being left wing means being able to have open, honest and sometimes uncomfortable debates. Being left wing is not, and never has been, about shutting down conversation, de-platforming, dogma, chilling effects. These are the things of the hard right, and the sooner people on the left start realising it and start being empowered to be vocal in defence of the freedom of ideas, the bet…

Problem is that people on the left support de-platforming. Perhaps it is wrong and business leaders are really responsible for this, but combating hate speech is popular in those circles. You can guess how hate gets define by zeitgeist.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#937

Post by CRConrad » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 9:05 AM UTC

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #250

saxonww wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that sex and gender are different though; gender _is_ a social construct. I think lack of agreement on this is a big part of the issue right now. Edit: as pointed out below, gender roles are something we've made up, but preferences and behavior themselves (which we're calling gender) are not. Still separate from sex.

Certain gender roles are social constructs, but gender as a whole cannot be a social construct because gender dysphoria exists. A transgender person’s gender identity is hardwired (and opposite of their genetic sex and outward sex characteristics), which is strong evidence that gender is an innate physiological characteristic. It’s likely something neurological, since trans people’s obvious physiological characterist…

> Certain gender roles are social constructs, but gender as a whole cannot be a social construct because gender dysphoria exists.

Huh? How does that logically follow? (Hint: It doesn't.)

Feels more like it's the other way around, that the existence of gender dysphoria proves that gender is a social (and psychological?) construct: If gender were always the same as biological sex, there would be no feeling of conflict between them. That some people do feel such a conflict shows that they are not always the same. Therefore they cannot both be purely biologically determined.

Maybe it would be easier for you to grok if you thought of it not as “gender conflicting with itself”, but think of it as — privately rename it to — “sex-gender dysphoria”?

> (This is why trans-exclusionary feminists exist, because the existence of trans people nullifies their belief that gender is 100% a social construct.)

On the contrary, that seems to be exactly what the TERFs don’t believe. They should just come out and admit that “if gender is a social construct, then we’re ‘feminists’ not in terms of female- gendered people but only in terms of people of female sex.” Which, since feminism is about the role of females in society, i.e. very much a social issue, would show them up as pretty damn silly... But that’s their problem.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#938

Post by pgsimp » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 9:20 AM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

Gender ideology affects almost everybody. It does not just affect members of the LGBT community. That is why there is a backlash against it, because people don't want to be pestered and indoctrinated by it.

Note that gender ideology and people being gay or whatever are not the same thing (just like feminism and being a woman are not the same thing - the one is an ideology and theory of the world, the other is a biological reality).

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#939

Post by CRConrad » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 9:23 AM UTC

a1369209993 wrote: post #331

mike00632 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in prison or competing at the highest level of sports? If not then why not just respect the preferences of trans people?

> > It's about who you're willing to date, who is put in which prison or who is allowed to compete in which sports competitions. > Are you in prison or competing at the highest level of sports? I assume they're dating.

> > > It's about who you're willing to date, who is put in which prison or who is allowed to compete in which sports competitions.

> > Are you in prison or competing at the highest level of sports?

> I assume they're dating.

Then the time to rise a stink and become loudly anti-trans is surely when the law starts to mandate[1] you dating them, or at the earliest, when it's starting to look as if the law is about to do so... But not before, right?

[1]: Hnyuk, hnyuk.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#940

Post by pgsimp » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 9:25 AM UTC

jolux wrote: post #451

btilly wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

> What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. This is frequently claimed but is untrue, or at the very least highly uncertain. The studies most often referenced have serious methodological errors, including inconsistent definitions of dysphoria (owing partially to proble…

Since the explosion of kids identifying as trans is a rather recent phenomenon, it seems likely that there is no good research on the outcomes yet. The people identifying as trans who were studied ten years ago may be very different from the people who identify as trans today (their reasons for feeling trans may be completely different).

It seems rather obvious that something like social contagion is going on, similar to anorexia. There may be cases with other causes, but a lot of them at the moment are probably social contagion.

If you think about it, onset of puberty is when the bodies of kids undergo drastic changes, and it is normal that they struggle to come to terms with it. Maybe worse for girls because their bodies change in more obvious sexual ways.

So they are in a vulnerable state where their bodies feel wrong until they have adjusted to their "new world".

I don't find it surprising that they are vulnerable to people telling them the reason their body feels wrong is because they are really trans, and they desperately grasp for an offered cure.

That is just me thinking, not "medical research", mind you. However, I think parental common sense is underrated when it comes to such issues. Too much expert bullshit has been injected into child rearing over the centuries.