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Why it took us thousands of years to see the colour violet

psyche.co

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Re: Why it took us thousands of years to see the colour violet

#31
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To my understanding the strange wording was caused by the requirements of the poetic construct the narration used. So they are filler to make other stuff fit. They are like punctuation. They are not trying to describe colors as such and should not be used as evidence how the people who spun the poem saw colors in psychological sense, I think.

It’s entirely possible the Greek language didn’t have the requisite color words yet. There seems to be a more or less stable order in which languages acquire color terms. > Berlin and Kay also found that, in languages with fewer than the maximum eleven color categories, the colors followed a specific evolutionary pattern. This pattern is as follows: > All languages contain terms for black and white. If a language con…

This smelled like Chomsky, and a quick google came up with:

> Anybody want a used Kay & Berlin coloring book? My grandchildren all outgrue theirs.

https://twitter.com/fakechomsky/status/139078855863447553?la...

Re: Why it took us thousands of years to see the colour violet

#33
post #28

> Egypt, Mesopotamia and the medieval Islamic cultures survived especially well in their extremely dry climates. And they had no violet in them at all. In ancient times purple was a luxury for dying clothes, even in medieval times, and harvesting sea snails for the dye was lucrative business between egyptians, phoeniceans etc. so how come they claim we can't see it? I dont think their claim is true. What's next? "Why…

Consider the color orange. There wasn't a name for the color in antiquity. When the fruit become available, its color was referred to as "the color of a norange" (this happened independently in various European languages. Unrelated factoid, many languages with an indefinite article that ends with n, assimilated the leading n of the fruit name in the article). Clearly our ancestors could see the orange colored before…

Interestingly, in a bunch of other European languages the fruit is referred to as ”apple from China”. But the colour is still named ”orange”.

Re: Why it took us thousands of years to see the colour violet

#34
post #30
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is not that unusual to find cultures and languages that do not distinguish between "green" and "blue", for example.

And brown and orange

Or us currently with blue and indigo, which were seen as clearly distinct colors when Newton lived.

Re: Why it took us thousands of years to see the colour violet

#35
post #28

> Egypt, Mesopotamia and the medieval Islamic cultures survived especially well in their extremely dry climates. And they had no violet in them at all. In ancient times purple was a luxury for dying clothes, even in medieval times, and harvesting sea snails for the dye was lucrative business between egyptians, phoeniceans etc. so how come they claim we can't see it? I dont think their claim is true. What's next? "Why…

Consider the color orange. There wasn't a name for the color in antiquity. When the fruit become available, its color was referred to as "the color of a norange" (this happened independently in various European languages. Unrelated factoid, many languages with an indefinite article that ends with n, assimilated the leading n of the fruit name in the article). Clearly our ancestors could see the orange colored before…

Interesting phenomenon concerning the name. It's the reverse of what happened to naperon which became an aperon in English.

Re: Why it took us thousands of years to see the colour violet

#37
Wow, what a terrible misunderstanding of colour.

Competing explanations that make as much sense and avoid the need for retarded ideas around recent evolution: The reason old paintings lack certain pigments is entirely practical i.e availability and or price. Such practical reasons occasionally crystallize into art traditions, even when no longer applicable. The reason old languages rarely used names for colours is because they were less abstract, meaning homer did not say sea was the colour of wine. He said the sea looked like wine. In older translations the emperor garments are as rich ripe plum, not imperial purple. Not that colour or pigment was unknown, it just wasn't used in common speech as it was essentially a technical term mostly used by artists.

Colour looks more like an artifact of language, its accuracy limited by language, rather than a low level visual feature, and as such people are both terrible at communicating what we know. As a result people are terrible at colours, but really only at communicating our understanding of colours, not actually at seeing colours.

This kind of stupidity regarding colour seems to be multiplying, so let me just point to a single experiment you can do yourself to rapidly disabuse yourself of the notion that our perception of colour is distinct from our ability to express colours by name lingually.

Create a simple game where different nuances of colour at the same brightness (use hsv to generate) are shown next to each other. In rgb the difference should be 4 out of 255 levels for one of r,g,b. You receive xp and a pleasing sound whenever you guess correctly proportional to how fast you chose, and you recieve hp damage and a nasty sound and whenever you are wrong, or take longer than 1 second. connect left mouse to the mark the left image, and the right mouse to the right image. Play for an hour or two. You will get better quite quickly. This disproves the idea that we cannot se colours we dont have names for. Further, at least for me, even before doing this I could tell the difference between far more nuances than there are names for colors in a simple grid of hex coded colors. I even remembered where the nuance I wanted was in the grid. Similarly, propose to replace the color pickers modern cg artists use with a dropdown menu of only the colors that there are names for and note how pissy they get.

The same brightness is unfortunately important because both modern screens, modern cameras and artists description of colour fail to account for the simple fact that we have 4 different receptors, not three, and the fourth massively changes how we perceive colours (ever noticed how cameras make everything look redder in low light, unlike your eyes beholding the same scene?). So this compensates for that. Similarly 4 intensity levels aren't the limit of our accuracy, its just the limit of typical modern screens. If you have a high quality ips screen, and haven't messed with the color projection too much, you can lower it further.

There is no scientific consensus on colour, mostly because its ill defined, but we do know definitively what it is not, and the ideas presented in the article are just wrong.

Re: Why it took us thousands of years to see the colour violet

#38
post #28

> Egypt, Mesopotamia and the medieval Islamic cultures survived especially well in their extremely dry climates. And they had no violet in them at all. In ancient times purple was a luxury for dying clothes, even in medieval times, and harvesting sea snails for the dye was lucrative business between egyptians, phoeniceans etc. so how come they claim we can't see it? I dont think their claim is true. What's next? "Why…

Consider the color orange. There wasn't a name for the color in antiquity. When the fruit become available, its color was referred to as "the color of a norange" (this happened independently in various European languages. Unrelated factoid, many languages with an indefinite article that ends with n, assimilated the leading n of the fruit name in the article). Clearly our ancestors could see the orange colored before…

What does that have to do with "seeing the color". Of course there are words for many exact things that are typical examples of some colors. People couldn't see a particular mid-dark red before Ferrari? Bianchi celeste color? Surf green Stratocaster? Or maybe when Pantone launched their color reference system, people then suddenly started seeing them? Think how walking in a meadow must have felt after seeing all the Pantone colors with their codes, and then really seeing the flowers' colors for the first time?!

This doesn't mean people didn't see the color beforehand. It is surprising that these kind of categorical errors get forwarded so easily.

Re: Why it took us thousands of years to see the colour violet

#39
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the color orange. There wasn't a name for the color in antiquity. When the fruit become available, its color was referred to as "the color of a norange" (this happened independently in various European languages. Unrelated factoid, many languages with an indefinite article that ends with n, assimilated the leading n of the fruit name in the article). Clearly our ancestors could see the orange colored before…

Interesting phenomenon concerning the name. It's the reverse of what happened to naperon which became an aperon in English.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/apron

https://www.etymonline.com/word/orange#etymonline_v_7106

Re: Why it took us thousands of years to see the colour violet

#40
post #37

Wow, what a terrible misunderstanding of colour. Competing explanations that make as much sense and avoid the need for retarded ideas around recent evolution: The reason old paintings lack certain pigments is entirely practical i.e availability and or price. Such practical reasons occasionally crystallize into art traditions, even when no longer applicable. The reason old languages rarely used names for colours is be…

I agree with your general sentiments. The game idea seems a bit much lol, but it could be fun. To me it seems self-evident, but here's another way to convey/understand the idea that we can perceive many unnamed colors (and in the process, name them)...

https://colornames.org

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