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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#911

Post by fork1 »

Spivak wrote: post #759
kenjackson wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I don't think this is very important compared to other topics. There are more blind people than trans people. There are more people with Alzheimer's than trans people. There are more people in the US who have lost a limb than trans people. It's not impactful in terms of the number of people, but its a civil rights issue for those on the left. And for those on the right its just one more group trying to c…

Sports fairness is basically a transphobe dogwhistle at this point. Major athletic organizations already have policies in place that say that trans women can’t compete unless x,y,z criteria are met which is typically a minimum number of years on HRT and T levels not more than something. The issue is that there is a trade-off being made here. A trans woman athlete likely has a better bone structure than the average ci…

Not just bones. Muscle mass and the rest doesn't just disappear. In the sport i do (rugby), it's been evaluated to be a danger to players (increased risk of injury), and i would wager most contact sports are similar.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#912

Post by jolux »

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #697
jolux wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TERFs primarily don't focus on trans men because they see them as misguided women. You can find many TERFs blaming trans women and "gender ideology" for convincing butch-identified lesbians that they're actually straight men. Personally I think this denies trans men the dignity and autonomy to define themselves as they see fit, but then again, I would say that, I'm trans.

Seems like a reasonable hypothesis to build a psychological study out of, but there’d be a lot of work to do on operationalizing your definitions.

Not sure what part you're referring to but it's more or less overt that many of them think trans men are basically women. This combined with what they say about trans women is most of where the accusations of essentialism come from.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#913

Post by kerkeslager »

noobermin wrote: post #660
kerkeslager wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you quote the whole sentence there? > A flyer with an image of a gun and text reading “shut the fuck up, terf” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) was circulating.

How does that help??? TERF is not a slur, it is definitely used as an epithet, but only the targets of the term call it a slur making it obvious the authors are sympathetic to the terfs.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're making between "slur" and "epithet", but I suspect you're reading too much into that choice of word.

The point I was making is that when you say "The protestors are framed as crazy"... it's not just framing. They sent a picture of a gun to a speaker--that IS crazy. If you can't even quote an entire sentence about the people you're defending, it's you that's doing the framing here.

And yes, the author clearly has a bias. But if you refuse to read anyone who has a bias, you'd better just give up reading. You certainly showed a bit of bias in your selection of which parts of that sentence to quote. It seems like your real complaint is that you don't agree with the author--if that's the case, then this is your opportunity to say why you think the author is wrong. That's how you have a discussion with people you disagree with: you don't accuse them of bias, you don't try to shut them up, and you definitely don't send them pictures of guns.

The truth has power. If what you're saying is actually true, you can get people to recognize it without making inane accusations, silencing naysayers, or making death threats.

To be clear: I think it's perfectly fine to call someone a TERF if the accusation is true, and it's bad to be a TERF. But sending pictures of guns to people has no place in a civilized discussion, and we shouldn't be tolerating that behavior or covering it up.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#914

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc »

jolux wrote: post #912
9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a reasonable hypothesis to build a psychological study out of, but there’d be a lot of work to do on operationalizing your definitions.

Not sure what part you're referring to but it's more or less overt that many of them think trans men are basically women. This combined with what they say about trans women is most of where the accusations of essentialism come from.

> TERFs primarily don't focus on trans men because they see them as misguided women.

Not well versed in feminist theory, but I’m curious whether anyone has formally documented in the scientific literature these sorts of psychological attitudes.

Probably a cross-disciplinary masters thesis worthy topic if no one has done that research yet.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#915

Post by jacquesm »

kelnos wrote: post #887
jacquesm wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the reverse: your sexuality - or anybody else's who is not my mate - is not on my list of 'want-to-know'. I simply do not care about the choices and/or attributes of other people though I believe they should be 100% free to make whatever choice they want and be whoever they are, and have gone out of my way to ensure that this is the case for people who find their life's choices frustrated or their reality denied…

I think the issue is that a gay man probably wants to be comfortable answering "what did you do last night?" with "I went out to dinner with my boyfriend", but can't be with a new friend who doesn't know about their sexuality. As much as we'd like to believe we have no biases, we do. Straight is the societal default. People who are not straight and just want to answer a question about their dinner run the risk of a b…

Understood. I think the reason why such a scenario would not likely play out in my vicinity is that being gay is such an accepted thing here that the large majority of the people would not bat an eye. The Amsterdam gay pride draws crowds from all over Europe each year.

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean there isn't any bigotry and associated violence against gays, lesbians, trans people etc. I wished that were true, alas here too we have our share of people who simply won't recognize reality. But I'm fairly sure that the people who are at risk of such violence here have their own ways of ensuring the chances of encountering people who are prone to acting on their bigotry in non-safe settings are reduced to a minimum, it's out in public where the risk is largest, and that increases as you get away from the larger population centers.

The bigger issue in 'coming out' here is to deal with such people in a family setting, that's where bigotry can and still does cause significant hardship.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#916

Post by jacquesm »

noobermin wrote: post #698
jacquesm wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the reverse: your sexuality - or anybody else's who is not my mate - is not on my list of 'want-to-know'. I simply do not care about the choices and/or attributes of other people though I believe they should be 100% free to make whatever choice they want and be whoever they are, and have gone out of my way to ensure that this is the case for people who find their life's choices frustrated or their reality denied…

This isn't about strangers, but acquaintances and friends, who would know you a little more intimately, no?

Sure, but by the time I would call someone my friend or acquaintance I would assume that they would feel safe enough saying anything that might reveal that fact in an indirect way. Then again, being gay/lesbian is very much an accepted thing here. Being trans still not so much, though that is changing.

If I would meet some stranger or some person in a work setting their sexuality would not be on my list of things I would be interested in, either we don't know each other that well or we have at best a working relationship, a job to get done, and to move the subject to sexuality would be - according to me - inappropriate.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#917

Post by orand »

eloff wrote: post #681
jolux wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. This is frequently claimed but is untrue, or at the very least highly uncertain. The studies most often referenced have serious methodological errors, including inconsistent definitions of dysphoria (owing partially to proble…

The fact that it spreads inside friend circles should be all it takes to defeat the idea that it is based on some fundamental internal gender dysphoria. It's more akin to a social meme. In not saying that applies to all cases, but definitely a good number of them among young people, especially girls.

It’s the new anorexia or cutting. These things come in societal waves, and tend to impact teenage girls the most.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#918

Post by yowlingcat »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

> There are more blind people than trans people. There are more people with Alzheimer's than trans people. There are more people in the US who have lost a limb than trans people.

That's a little bit of a non-sequitur, no? If this should be compared to anything, it's to earlier left-right "cultural war" flash points such as same-sex marriage and abortion.

Say that people with Alzheimer's should get access to better medical treatment, and no one will disagree with you (although some might say "as long as I don't pay"). Say the same about people who have lost a limb, and you'll see the same thing.

But try making any such statement about trans people, and you'll get vehement, polarized agreement and disagreement. Now, you've entered the territory of how people should and shouldn't be able to express their physical identity in public, in both sexual and non-sexual manners. And you are about to run into many strongly held opinions and pre-existing cultural mores.

With that said, I don't disagree with your last point. Sometimes, I do feel like cultural war inflammations are purposely constructed to hack the human psyche by playing into these strongly held beliefs and pre-existing cultural mores. At least in the present day, these kinds of inflammations work very effectively for generating engagement in the attention economy. But I don't know if that's a good thing. On the contrary (and maybe you'd agree with me here), I often get the sense that it's a bad thing.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#919

Post by orand »

bsder wrote: post #624
drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

> I don't mean to downplay what is happening because it is happening but do you not think the amount of outrage this topic generates surpasses the level of impact we can have assuming we fix it? It just feels like we're being distracted. There is something about tech, though, that seems to concentrate the male to female transitioners far above background levels. I can count more than a half-dozen male to female trans…

Autism/Asperger’s is likely the common factor. There are studies that show this.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#920

Post by lunatuna »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

I have a theory that we are seeing a "Times Square Billboard Effect" where as we progress and some marginalize groups are being better heard and included other groups are both seeing an opportunity and need to get more noticed. Similar to Times Square billboards having to get brighter, flashier and larger to be noticed. With how traditional and social media are working to get noticed it has be as big and loud as possible.

Where this goes I have no idea.

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