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Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

nytimes.com

451–460 of 548 posts

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#451
post #344
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving to areas with "good schools" is one. Only schools where wealthy people live get good funding, so when they concentrate where they live to one place, everywhere else suffers

The US has some of the best-funded public schools in the world and some of the worst outcomes in public schools. “Funding” is a red herring at best and an excuse for extractive politics in reality. It turns out that life outcomes have approximately nothing whatsoever to do with how much money your childhood schools got. It also strikes me as quite perverse to blame people who are able to move their children out of sc…

> It also strikes me as quite perverse to blame people who are able to move their children out of schools that have become terrible (through no fault of their own).

People not being involved is a big way schools become terrible.

If the people who would push for quality can simply opt out instead, what's left? If the people who know what it takes to succeed abandon the system, who left is supposed to even know what is required to make the public system succeed? Any loss of funding pales in comparison to lost passion and expertise.

Most public services that the well-off don't have to use are going to suck, because the only victims are by definition the ones without much power to make change!

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#452
"Schooling" is what is really meant in the article -- not true "education" of which there is little of in most compulsory schools. According to two-times NY Teacher of the Year John Taylor Gatto, Prussian-derived compulsory schooling as practiced in the USA was primarily instituted to dumb people down and make them compliant workers, consumers, and soldiers. Gatto argues that if you give schools more money and they will only do that primary mission more effectively. Gatto calls this a "conspiracy against ourselves" where populations knowingly made a tradeoff 150 years or so ago to get the perks of cheaper mass-produced consumer goods and fearsome armies and swaddling cradle-to-grave bureaucracy -- but at a long term cost of the spirit.

See Gatto's book (one of many): "The Underground History of American Education: A School Teacher's Intimate Investigation Into the Problem of Modern Schooling" https://archive.org/details/TheUndergroundHistoryOfAmericanE... "John Taylor Gatto is a former New York public schoolteacher who taught for thirty years and won multiple awards for his teaching. However, constant harassment by unhelpful administrations plus his own frustrations with what he came to realize were the inherent systemic deficiencies of our `public' schools led him to resign; he now is a school-choice activist who writes and speaks against our compulsory, government-run school system. ... In the final analysis, Gatto believes that compulsory, government-run schooling is inherently destructive to true education, the cultivation of self-reliance, and indeed to individualism - which used to be a defining element of the American character. The true purpose of our public school system in reality has more to do with control than it does with learning. This does not mean that rank-and-file teachers, principals, and even superintendents believe they are making students dumber, more conformist, less self-reliant, less capable of genuine analytical, independent thought, and more easily controlled; most people involved in the system no doubt believe that they are trying their best to really teach their students. However, the system itself (which Gatto often characterizes as a complex web) ensures that its real purpose is served, despite the efforts of individual reformers within it - that true democracy is rendered unworkable even as the trappings of democracy are allegedly bolstered. Seen in this light, these institutions that produce barely literate, dependent, conformist, incomplete individuals full of emotional and psychological problems, who lack real knowledge (and whose capacity for acquiring such is deliberately weakened or eliminated), and who are just `educated' enough to pay their taxes and buy the latest products, are not, in fact, failing schools - on the contrary, if we are to believe Gatto's analysis, they are performing their designated function PERFECTLY. That purpose is to mold people in such a way as to make them more easily controlled by corporations and the state (a clear-cut example of how, contrary to popular myth, the interests of big business and those of big government more often than not coincide.)"

Or for a short essay on this, consider Gatto's "Seven Lesson Schoolteacher": https://www.life-enthusiast.com/articles/children-seven-less... "... Look again at the seven lessons of school teaching: confusion, class position, indifference, emotional and intellectual dependency, conditional self-esteem, surveillance – all of these things are prime training for permanent underclasses, people deprived forever of finding the center of their own special genius. ..."

And while sometimes college can be a bit of a relief from some of the worst of this, graduate school and professional schools then brings it back with a new twist, as explained in "Disciplined Minds": https://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/ "Who are you going to be? That is the question. In this riveting book about the world of professional work, Jeff Schmidt demonstrates that the workplace is a battleground for the very identity of the individual, as is graduate school, where professionals are trained. He shows that professional work is inherently political, and that professionals are hired to subordinate their own vision and maintain strict "ideological discipline." The hidden root of much career dissatisfaction, argues Schmidt, is the professional's lack of control over the political component of his or her creative work. Many professionals set out to make a contribution to society and add meaning to their lives. Yet our system of professional education and employment abusively inculcates an acceptance of politically subordinate roles in which professionals typically do not make a significant difference, undermining the creative potential of individuals, organizations and even democracy. Schmidt details the battle one must fight to be an independent thinker and to pursue one's own social vision in today's corporate society. He shows how an honest reassessment of what it really means to be a professional employee can be remarkably liberating. After reading this brutally frank book, no one who works for a living will ever think the same way about his or her job."

There are of course some great teachers scattered about in many schools. There are students who evade some of the worst of this dumbing down by luck or skill or hobbies. There are families that homeschool in a variety of ways. There are even some schools that support alternative models. https://www.educationrevolution.org/store/findaschool/member...

Here is a conference on educational alternatives starting tomorrow: https://www.aeroconference.org/keynote-speakers-1

But the majority of schooling for most people (at least in the USA) remains overall a dulling "equalizing" experience -- especially if you are brighter and so needed to be reduced in intensity to become a standardized product.

Related on an mythical "equalizer" making people fit an arbitrary standard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#453
post #82
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't get locked up to work in order to afford healthcare, food, etc. - and are thus more free to take chances. If Europeans are more free to take chances, why is there substantially less innovation in Europe? I don't think Europe is "worse" than the US. I think Europe is optimized for the poor whereas the US is optimized for the middle class and above. There are good arguments for both of these situations. In…

> One interesting thing is that Europeans benefit from American innovation. They have iphones, windows pcs, use google, etc like everyone else. Until the iPhone, Europe dominated the mobile phone business both in handsets and wireless network equipment. And this wasn't just the manufacturers; texting was pretty heavy and ubiquitous in the mid 1990s while it was still a novelty for the US a decade later. Europe was a…

> Europe was a significant player in the early PC revolution and other technologies ubiquitous today; consider, for example, that the ARM processor was developed in the UK.

And Minitel.

While laughed at today, it was a demonstration that people were willing to spend money online (and a working payment system).

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#454

A lot of people here need to talk to some entrepreneurs. It doesn't matter how good, or how well funded, the school system is: if the family is poor, you're not going to be able to float rent on the storefront you need, or purchase initial inventory of whatever you're making, much less soak up a few false starts, much less take out a bank loan to do any of these things. Period. This does not in ANY WAY mean there sho…

Generational wealth is way overstated. Steve jobs didn’t have generational wealth. Airbnb was funded by selling obama branded cereal.

Yes, we can point to exceptions.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#455
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its better to be born in the 95th percentile in intelligence vs the 95th percentile in wealth in terms of where you will actually end up.

People are doubting you but they fail to realize that the more intelligent the person, the more consequential functional applications they can see in everything around them. The difference between a baboon and a human genius is their ability to see tools and techniques by looking at what is around them. We might also consider that money, gold and other non useful items have valuable largely because very smart and inf…

I've lived in the country and I've lived in the city.

If you do anything that requires networks of people living in the country will hurt your chances, this even applies to learning about stuff you're curious about, without a community it's way harder to do, and that community just doesn't exist when there aren't enough people. The internet has alleviated this somewhat but for some things nothing beats in person.

There is also something to be said about regional attitudes. If you grow up as the only kid in town interested in Robotics when everyone else your age is into Football, you're going to have a hard time.

This isn't even touching the fact that jobs are scarce in these small towns, unless you are a remote tech worker, but even then good luck getting a decent internet connection, even more so now that some politicians are trying to outlaw municipal ISPs.

Also the stats for country living aren't nearly as spotless as people want to believe, Meth is a big problem, teen pregnancies too, even suicide is high and rising in Rural America. Calling it safer or even more wholesome is questionable at best.

Suicide in Rural America on the rise (2019) https://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/suicide-rates-a...

Drug overdose death rate 10% higher in Rural America (2019) https://www.gatewayfoundation.org/addiction-blog/rural-subst...

Why is Teen Pregnancy Higher in Rural Areas? (2016) https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/teen-birth-rate-higher-r...

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#456

A lot of people here need to talk to some entrepreneurs. It doesn't matter how good, or how well funded, the school system is: if the family is poor, you're not going to be able to float rent on the storefront you need, or purchase initial inventory of whatever you're making, much less soak up a few false starts, much less take out a bank loan to do any of these things. Period. This does not in ANY WAY mean there sho…

Here I thought I was underachieving because I was reading HN comments instead of doing anything productive. Now I see that the world, or at least subsets of the population I’m allowed to blame for my problems, has wronged me, which appeals to my petty sense of envy and bitterness and assuages the guilt I had about not actually trying. Perhaps this inequality is actually a grand conspiracy. I wish the press, academia,…

You are correct. The homeless camps across the United States are no doubt full of people not actually trying.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#457

A lot of people here need to talk to some entrepreneurs. It doesn't matter how good, or how well funded, the school system is: if the family is poor, you're not going to be able to float rent on the storefront you need, or purchase initial inventory of whatever you're making, much less soak up a few false starts, much less take out a bank loan to do any of these things. Period. This does not in ANY WAY mean there sho…

> By all means educate, but don't con yourself that it will matter, in the absence of any other changes.

Most people who are not rich do con themself with that belief. Life becomes bearable only if you have a degree of delusion.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#458
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are 95% (to be conservative) of the tech unicorns US-based ? At this point, you can start drawing a trend. European successes are more the exception than the rule, which is kinda irrelevant anyway as 95% of European successes will end up being merged into a US behemoth...

Europe doesn't create Ubers because it doesn't have the capital. its not to do with innovation. VC as a model requires huge markets and huge amounts of financing. It doesn't require home grown innovation.

> Europe doesn't create Ubers because it doesn't have the capital. its not to do with innovation.

Europe has capital. You'll find a lot in Silicon Valley.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to both what people would consider "Crappy schools" and "good schools". Crappy schools have an awful student body, many of which don't want to be there, are further behind in their learning than their grade indicates, are disruptive, and teachers have to spend large amounts of time calling security to have students removed or disciplining students. Often, the parents blame the schools and teachers for all thei…

Reading this it seems closer to peer group than school itself. I guess I’m part of the peer group that has to be avoided at all costs, to the extent of paying $30-$50k a year for private school.

So that’s the sad thing. So many of the kids did have potential and wanted to learn but the school environment was tainted with enough disruption to ruin it. Kids that could excel would be disruptive and I should know since I was one of them. It was anarchy at times and why not participate in it?

Kids are impressionable and will adapt to the culture they’re immersed in. I took on bad values because I was immersed in that. I’m only grateful afterwards I was able to figure it out. I lost a few years early on but was able to recover. I only wish I was immersed in a serious academic environment rather than prison training. My kids absolutely will not be immersed in that and I wish no parent that wants to surround their kids with likewise parents would have to settle for that. It’s why funding students and not schools is the best path. Poor, single moms would have the option of getting their kids out of these public school hell holes.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#460

The oligarchs have been working to detroy the middle class for a long time now (see the Norman Dodd interview or The Leipzig Connection), and education is a key piece of that work, because it truly can be a great equalizer. You will notice not just different curriculum, but entirely different methods being used at a posh place for the elite like Eton, vs a (US) public school or even most upper middle class private sc…

I hear this a lot and I have a hard time believing it. What is something the rich have done with the intent to destroy the middle class? Your example with public vs private schools has less to do with diminishing public schools and everything to do with their maximizing their own children's education. If we end private schools, do we still allow paid tutors? If so, I don't see how that field gets levelled.

> Your example with public vs private schools has less to do with diminishing public schools and everything to do with their maximizing their own children's education.

Yes, that is exactly how it happens. I agree there is not a specific intent to destroy the middle class. There is an intent by the wealthy to keep their taxes going to only those schools and services that would benefit their children — the rest of the community can just fuck off and get rich if they want good education too.

It's like that in all ways. Not specifically antagonistic toward the working class, just selfish.

Another example: they give money to politicians that will pass legislation that will favor them and theirs. Again, the rest of us can get rich and buy our own politicians if we don't like it.

Human nature? Maybe. And no doubt the working class can behave selfishly as well. But the working class and poor don't have the financial means to bend policy toward their selfishness, only the wealthy can do that.

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