A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#821

Post by farias0 » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:03 AM UTC

kwanbix wrote: post #202

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

100% Agree. At least in my home country, this is mostly fueled by the left (I consider myself center). Lots of them just "work" of doing nothing but protesting, so once they get something they wanted, they have to move to the next thing. For example, they start by making changes to the language so, instead of being "los" (male) or "las" (female) they started to say "les" (does not exists in spanish) as they say it is…

I absolutely agree it's wrong to publicly shame someone to use this pronoun, but I don't agree with how you're framing the rest of the situation. Why is it that they're "indoctrinating" and not "teaching"? Also, if people are using this word it naturally exists.

You seem to accuse them of having an agenda, as if this is a bad thing on its own, but it's clear you too have an agenda of your own. But while theirs, misguided or not, is based on acceptance, what's yours based on?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#822

Post by chillwaves » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:04 AM UTC

klipt wrote: post #725

mabub24 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect it has much to do with the idea that trans-men are transitioning into a gender "in power." That is, adopting masculine social behavior and lifestyle allow transmen to enter the patriarchal fold and slip quite seamlessly into a male dominant society, as long as they remain unknown . Once they are known, the idea that they must be excommunicated or "proven" as female becomes imperative. Transmen are subject t…

I think it stems from privilege. Trans women are seen as seeking female privileges (like the ability to compete against women in sports, which is easier than competing against men). Which enrages some people. Trans men are seen as giving up their female privileges, to which everyone shrugs and says "you want less privilege? Fine by me!"

Are there no privileges afforded to men?

I can think of at least one -- working in tech.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#823

Post by NikolaNovak » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:06 AM UTC

btilly wrote: post #370

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

I hate to wade into a controversial topic where I'm under-educated and have limited info/opinions; but for what little it is worth to add to anecdata - the current cohort of 12-15 year old girls in my friend/family circle are virtually all in some level of gender dysphoria. Most of their parents are supportive and loving but... panicked, I guess - completely uncertain what to do, how best to help them, and without robust support themselves. I think there'll be people with strong opinions giving advice here as there are in real life - but those are in some ways people whose advice I'd personally be least likely to take - on average, more interested in propagating some ideological rightness (on any and all sides), rather than looking at each and every child, circumstance, and taking a good hard look what's best of the person. Because that is a damn difficult question, whereas loud opinions are all too easy.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#824

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:06 AM UTC

whoooooo123 wrote: post #720

hackinthebochs wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third Here's the problem I have with this line of defense: it doesn't accommodate the reality of self-id and the likely downstream effects if it becomes the accepted norm. If all it takes for a male to be housed in a female prison is a checkmark on a form, we should expect that many cis-men will take advantage of the situation, thus creating a very real threat of a…

This isn't a hypothetical; it's already happened. Look up the case of Karen White in the UK.

[deleted]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#825

Post by farias0 » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:07 AM UTC

kwanbix wrote: post #300

lotu wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is defined by the people who speak it, not by some authority. If people are using “les” than it is part of Spanish.

If it was natural an used by all, it could be, but it in this case it was not natural, not used or liked by all, and forced. For example, thief's use their own words and it is not considered part of Spanish for example. They started with gender ideology and then started to escalate. And it is not more inclusive if you force me to leave my believes. If you want to be called "les", and you ask nice, I will probably hav…

Those "thief words" are part of a dialect, yes. A word being "forced" or "natural", whatever that means, has no bearing on this discussion, and neither your personal choice of using them or not.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#826

Post by lordCarbonFiber » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:09 AM UTC

jhrmnn wrote: post #562

scubbo wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

I think your last paragraph hints at the root cause. Many people simply have a trouble seeing gender purely as self-image since it has originated from sex, which is objective. And this development is quite recent.

Two things here. 1. Sex isn't nearly as objective as you're making it out to be. It's a bimodal spectrum of correlated traits; meaning there isn't a single marker you can choose to separate everyone into neat buckets that wouldn't misclassify some cis people (and jeez yall get mad when you get misgendered). [0]

2. None of this is even remotely new, Im not sure where you're getting that impression from. Germany had an entire institute dedicated to studying trans people at the turn of the 20th century [1]. I'd agree that for a variety of (usually discriminatory and religious) reasons it hasn't been well studied, but trans people certainly arent new.

[0] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/24702897188036...

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissen...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#827

Post by mkr-hn » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

oofabz wrote: post #98

I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.

These discussions used to be a lot worse. I think occasionally having people butt heads a little with good moderation has helped relax people a bit on the subject. This is the most productive thread I've seen on the issue on HN.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#828

Post by nate_meurer » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #746

danShumway wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling li…

Puberty blockers are a pretty nifty tool to this end - they allow any hard committal to be deferred - the child can reverse their decision without any serious long term ills. I am rather concerned about the possibility that invasive surgery might become normalized in non-adults but I don't believe it's something that's close to happening. Teenagers explore their identity in a number of vectors. I have always been str…

Please cite a long term medical study that confirms the safety and complete reversibility of puberty blocking.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#829

Post by baryphonic » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:13 AM UTC

lukebitts wrote: post #752

fefe23 wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like you are not contesting that it's a slur. You just think the slurred party deserves it.

It doesn't sound like that at all to me. Also, they ARE trans-exclusionary and they ARE radical feminists. I don't buy that a simple description is a slur.

Okay, let's accept this framing for the sake of argument. Does the n-word then merely refer to dark color?

I think not. It's obviously used as a slur and a way to shut people up. Reductionism to etymology or literal interpretation do not change that fact.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#830

Post by vineyardmike » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 1:13 AM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

We have the American Disabilities Act.

We provide braille books, and TTS options.

We invent wheelchairs and ramps and lots of prosthetic limbs.

We (recently) approved a drug to treat Alzheimer.

We offer nursing homes and in-house help and care to old people with mental issues.

We do little more than argue about trans individuals. And many trans individuals are killed or commit suicide. The average life expectancy for a trans person is likely a lot smaller than a blind or disabled person.

THAT is why trans people and the related community are making a lot of noise.