A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#751

Post by honkdaddy » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:58 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #659

flavius29663 wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of racial ideology, I honestly don't understand how we're supposed to become less racists if we're drawing so much attention to race and putting it left, right and center of any policy discussion?

Because, honestly, shutting up about it and ignoring it is the solution we tried from the 70s through the 2000s and it didn't accomplish anything - racist folk were just empowered by not being called out on it. At least when it comes to America - there are some very deeply entrenched societal issues that we'd need to resolve to achieve anything near equality including generations of depriving wealth accumulation in c…

Did it really not accomplish anything? Remember that Jim Crow laws officially ended in 1964 with the Civil Rights Act. 44 years later the first black US president was elected.

Is it really fair to say we've come nowhere since the 70s?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#752

Post by lukebitts » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:59 PM UTC

fefe23 wrote: post #722

omegaworks wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the very first paragraph: >(trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) Bigots offended at being called out on their bigotry. The Economist reveals their bias and their stake in the debate by asserting that "terf is a slur" and later by representing "gender critical" ideologies as "mainstream." It's plainly irresponsible journalism and not at all sober.

That sounds like you are not contesting that it's a slur. You just think the slurred party deserves it.

It doesn't sound like that at all to me.

Also, they ARE trans-exclusionary and they ARE radical feminists. I don't buy that a simple description is a slur.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#753

Post by AussieWog93 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 11:59 PM UTC

f38zf5vdt wrote: post #346

deadite wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These ground exclusively concern themselves with trans-women. I second this. Maybe it's some echo chamber effect or a minority stirring shit up, but I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? I…

I think it is the same reason no one has ever cared much about lesbians compared to gay men. [1] But I am not sure why that is. [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/lesbians-more-accept...

I was thinking exactly the same thing. A man with a vagina is much less sodomy-y than a woman with a penis.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#754

Post by munk-a » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:01 AM UTC

flavius29663 wrote: post #741

munk-a wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly though the question around sports fairness is less a problem raised by trans people and more just an existing issue exposed. Female and male bodies work differently on average but there are a good number of women more fit and physically capable than 99% of men - gender is not an independent variable in physical fitness but I do wonder if there's really much of a reason to keep insisting that the genders be s…

> I do wonder if there's really much of a reason to keep insisting that the genders be separated into exclusive leagues. The world champion team of female soccer gets beat by a boys under 15 high school team https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-b... The 203rd male tennis player absolutely crushes the Williams sisters https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468a... Women 100m reco…

While we do have the special olympics, there are all sorts of classes of people who lack genetic traits to excel at sports and no allowance is made for them to compete within their own bracket - the only bracket we have is men and women.

I will admit that this is not a hill I'll die on though - I have almost no interest in sports as a profession so it's a fair bit out of my wheelhouse.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#755

Post by Gustomaximus » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:01 AM UTC

phodge wrote: post #631

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

In Australia and most other developed countries now, this ideology is heavily promoted to children, encouraging them to believe they are trans. They are connected with websites that promote the ideology, and then connected with a trans specialist who helps prescribe puberty blockers without parental knowledge. If you are a parent who believes that children should be taught to love their own bodies as they grow rather…

Australian parent here. While recognising I'm a sample of one, Ive never seen or heard from many other parent friends trans ideology being promoted.

If you have some examples please share. I suspect you've come across an article pushing a an edge case that tried to make it out as normal. This type of media is common at the more extreme ends of whatever views.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#756

Post by stickfigure » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:02 AM UTC

CapmCrackaWaka wrote: post #388

stickfigure wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a statistical perspective, black Americans are more likely to commit violent crimes than white. Yet we got rid of white/colored restrooms, and claiming "I'm afraid of blacks" is rightly considered racist and offensive.

The counter argument to this is that African Americans are more likely to commit crimes because they are, on average, more poor because of systemic racism, not because they are biologically predisposed to committing crimes.

Are you saying that it would be okay to have segregated restrooms if someone could prove a biological basis for the somewhat higher violent crime rate among black Americans?

Because if you're not saying that, I don't see how this is a counter argument.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#757

Post by Wowfunhappy » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:02 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #618

brundolf wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a wonderfully nuanced thread on the subject from a trans woman in her thirties: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1385411504669790208.html Edit: I just noticed the original poster already converted this into a longform post, so the "reader app" version isn't really necessary https://liminalwarmth.com/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-m...

A 77-fold tweet storm, that has got to be some kind of world record. It's surprising how much of it is just plain old common sense that would never be seen as sensitive or "political" in a halfway sane environment, stated in what comes off as a painfully diplomatic way, going to extreme lengths to not ruffle any feathers.

I really didn't read it that way. It was an earnest, heartfelt piece largely discussing the author's own experience.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#758

Post by 0xcde4c3db » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:03 AM UTC

With the focus on academic freedom and ideological hegemony, I can't help but feel like this article is tilling the soil for something akin to a "teach the controversy" campaign [1], i.e. the sort of thing that ideological movements turn to when they've run out of actual arguments that can stem the tide of a shifting consensus and have no option left but to invoke a sort of meta-debate about whether their ideas are receiving a fair hearing. It's not clear to me that "gender critics" are more broadly embracing this stance, but it wouldn't be much of a shock at this point.

I suppose I'll keep an eye out for the announcement of "Expelled 2: No Gender Allowed" [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teach_the_Controversy

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expelled%3A_No_Intelligence_Al...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#759

Post by Spivak » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:03 AM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #489

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

> Personally I don't think this is very important compared to other topics. There are more blind people than trans people. There are more people with Alzheimer's than trans people. There are more people in the US who have lost a limb than trans people. It's not impactful in terms of the number of people, but its a civil rights issue for those on the left. And for those on the right its just one more group trying to c…

Sports fairness is basically a transphobe dogwhistle at this point. Major athletic organizations already have policies in place that say that trans women can’t compete unless x,y,z criteria are met which is typically a minimum number of years on HRT and T levels not more than something.

The issue is that there is a trade-off being made here. A trans woman athlete likely has a better bone structure than the average cis woman but not better than the most naturally gifted cis female athletes. Athletic orgs have largely decided that this is fine and it’s not a significant enough advantage to care about because the question for them was “how can trans women compete” not “if trans women can compete.”

But then it’s such an easy issue to drive a wedge on because you can get people riled up about whether trans women should be able to compete with a sprinkling of misinformation about what HRT does and dash of “so a man can just say he’s a woman and compete.”

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#760

Post by whoooooo123 » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 12:05 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #321

IncRnd wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This would mean throwing out a lot of the more epheremeral complaints "I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Let's fix that part, then. Because there are going to be scary women too. Do you recognize that there are actual reasons that a woman might not want to go into a bathroom with 5 men in it?

It took a lot of mental self-awareness on my part, and reading a lot of such statements, to recognise how strongly I've been mentally programmed (brainwashed) by society to think of men as evil , and not even flinch when I used to read statements like the one above (implying / assuming that men are, by default, extremely violent and dangerous, and that everyone is justified by judging every man as such). It's easier…

What? Women have all kinds of rational reasons to be wary of strange men they don't know, especially in a secluded place like a bathroom. This isn't because "men are evil" or that all men are violent and dangerous, it's because some men are violent and dangerous, and even if that's only 1% of men, it only takes one violent man to ruin your life, so women don't like to take risks. The same isn't true in reverse because women don't pose a physical threat to men in anything resembling the same way.

I'm male. My relationships with women improved dramatically once I realised just how safety-conscious women need to be on a regular basis, at a level that men don't experience at all.

But sure, men are the real victims.