A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#611

Post by samat » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #578

scubbo wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

But how can anyone _possibly_ deny the first part? How could anyone contradict an individual who states their own gender - on what grounds can you claim to know how someone feels about themselves better than they themself do? How do you define denying the first part? According to my child's world view, I need to ask them every day what their pronouns are today. And any accidental slip-ups on any adult's part are a de…

Really sorry about the stress of raising a teenager!

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#612

Post by throwaway384028 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

ENIanDEM wrote: post #540

meragrin_ wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> predatory trans women How about predatory men pretending to be trans-women?

Can we please return to some semblance of reality?

In a thread related to women thinking they're men and men thinking they're women

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#613

Post by kwanbix » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #513

kwanbix wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% Agree. At least in my home country, this is mostly fueled by the left (I consider myself center). Lots of them just "work" of doing nothing but protesting, so once they get something they wanted, they have to move to the next thing. For example, they start by making changes to the language so, instead of being "los" (male) or "las" (female) they started to say "les" (does not exists in spanish) as they say it is…

> But it is not that they say "los", "las", and "les", they want you to say "les". Trying to indoctrinate kids to use a non-gender specific term? It seems like using the term indoctrinate seems a tad strong.

No, left people in my home country do it all the time.

In general they are "militants" of the Peronist party.

There are videos and books for kids that shows Peron, Evita, and more recently our current Vice President as heroes and such.

https://i.imgur.com/zgVUcjS.jpg There it literally says: Peron is the leader, everybody loves Peron, everybody sings long live Peron!, long live the leader! hurrah!

https://i.imgur.com/gkqespa.jpg This one is about Evita, Peron's wife: Evita loves the kids. The boys and girls love Eva. Long live Evita! Hurrah! Hurrah!

This two are pages of books for kids of elementary school from 60 something years ago.

However, you can still see in school:

https://i.imgur.com/MJuFrQx.jpg This one shows Cristina Kirchner, our current VP, in a book that tries to "leftiside" the kids.

https://i.imgur.com/YIgEDja.jpg that is the results, kids with the "La Campora" a militant group from peronism.

https://i.imgur.com/Ei2VWG0.jpg And there again.

It is what has brought Argentina to is knees.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#614

Post by heterodoxxed » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

alisonkisk wrote: post #594

john-radio wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No claim containing the string "is not recommended by anyone" will hold up, since eventually it's easy enough to find someone (probably a troll) who does recommend X practice. But the post that you're replying to, in general, holds up. "Gender reassignment surgery is typically only available to those 18 and older in the United States." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag...

"typically" is bearing a lot of load there, and GRS is a broad term. Double mastectomy is practiced, at least: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abst...

Mastectomies are performed for non-gender-related reasons, such as prophylactic mastectomies, so it's arguable whether that falls under the definition of SRS/GRS. For any reason, it is exceedingly, vanishingly rare in children.

It seems like an oddly small number to obsess over, especially considering over 8,000 non-trans teenagers between 13 and 19 receive breast augmentations each year.

From your link:

| the mean (SD) age was 19 (2.5) years for postsurgical participants and 17 (2.5) years for nonsurgical participants

Surgical patients would be the ones who are in the most danger of suicide or self-harm or for whom nonsurgical (hormone) treatment is not an option.

Also,

| Self-reported regret was near 0.

Here is the document that the report refers to as the standard for care for transgender patients:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/amo_hub_content/Association140/file...

You'll want to look at Section VI: . Assessment and Treatment of Children and Adolescents with Gender Dysphoria.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#615

Post by ithkuil » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #578

scubbo wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

But how can anyone _possibly_ deny the first part? How could anyone contradict an individual who states their own gender - on what grounds can you claim to know how someone feels about themselves better than they themself do? How do you define denying the first part? According to my child's world view, I need to ask them every day what their pronouns are today. And any accidental slip-ups on any adult's part are a de…

Teenager brains have a outstanding circuitry designed at discovering what infuriates their parents (and the generation of their parents) and just hammer on it, whatever that thing is.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#616

Post by fxtentacle » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

scubbo wrote: post #530

btilly wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a claim about ideology. You made a claim about medical professionals. That is not particularly relevant to what I claimed. I stand by my claim. The online echo chambers that children, including my own, seek out very much push the ideology that any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment t…

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

My I can imagine thousands of reasons why teenagers would lie, and maybe they'll come up with new pronouns just to annoy you. Because that's what kids do, they constantly test the limits of acceptable behavior and the limits of your patience.

That said, I agree with you that people can choose what gender they feel like and others should accept it as an opinion. But trying to force others to change their behavior to accommodate your opinion very quickly becomes unreasonable.

So gender is fine, but pronouns are already a slippery slope.

Do you believe a horny teenage guy would be willing to lie and say he identifies as female, if that means he gets to see all of his female classmates naked?

It's a tradeoff between people living out their believes and the inconvenience that this causes for others.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#617

Post by analognoise » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

worik wrote: post #499

slibhb wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your explanation of "TERF talking points" is fair. Contra Judith Butler it's not clear that feminism has any meaning without some essential idea of "womanhood". That is fundamentally what disturbs "TERFs". When you talk about "this Goldilocks zone of womanhood," I think you've rediscovering one of the oldest philosophical discoveries: mental concepts and ideas (in this case "woman") do not apply perfect…

I am with you until "...the vast majority of people". I am not sure it is true, and utterly sure it does not matter

I don't think "trans women are women" is a literal statement - I think it means "we should give trans women the rights and protections afforded to women"; it's an expression of support.

Kinda like "Black Lives Matter" - obviously they do, but the fact that you have to say it out loud and directly highlights the disparity and systemic injustices faced by people of color.

At least, that's what I think those things mean, someone with a more sophisticated understanding will probably correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#618

Post by zozbot234 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

brundolf wrote: post #537

btilly wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

This is a wonderfully nuanced thread on the subject from a trans woman in her thirties: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1385411504669790208.html Edit: I just noticed the original poster already converted this into a longform post, so the "reader app" version isn't really necessary https://liminalwarmth.com/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-m...

A 77-fold tweet storm, that has got to be some kind of world record. It's surprising how much of it is just plain old common sense that would never be seen as sensitive or "political" in a halfway sane environment, stated in what comes off as a painfully diplomatic way, going to extreme lengths to not ruffle any feathers.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#619

Post by arkaniad » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

_qbjt wrote: post #292

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly I am finding it very difficult to be heard. As a member of the trans community I’ve tried to be kind and helpful in my comments in this thread but I’m getting downvoted to hell. I just really want people in this thread to learn about emotional labor and to consider what they’re asking of marginalized people when they want to “discuss” the validity of their needs.

Trans people are a hot button issue these days but it feels like we don’t really have a seat at the table in that debate. The healthiest thing you can do for yourself is just live your life, surround yourself with people who make you feel safe, valued and loved, and stop trying to convince random strangers online that you’re worth something. I take a lot of inspiration from the ball room / drag culture - how it creat…

This is the goal and the ideal and what I myself choose to manifest, but it does bring me sadness to see a place I go to lurk on the tech and science grapevines and stay away from the 'discourse' start featuring threads articles debating how many rights I should have and in which ways should I be segregated from the people that need to be protected from me, particularly when honest attempts to reach out and foster understanding and sort out confusions get talked past.

I'm a trans individual. I celebrate this and all the healing and personal growth that's come from coming to terms with this fact and so does mostly everyone I've ever been close with, and I live far outside the 'liberal bubble' of SV/etc. I am comfortable with having discussions and educating, but merely existing and advocating for one's own safety and happiness seems to be enough to start debates, even here. I don't want to have a 'culture war' or participate in a 'gender agenda', but as an adult human who wishes (i'd argue that it's somewhat of an obligation) to have an active role in civil society I must also advocate for myself and people like me.

I urge people to listen more if they haven't been through it themselves. I know there's a lot of information out there about trans individuals that has inspired a lot of confusion and concern. It can be a confusing topic! Trans people tend to know a lot about it by necessity but seem to be listened to the least when the topic comes up. I personally think there's more intellectual curiosity to be had in the meta-conversation around why this discourse is the way it is given the fact that we have plenty of testimony, data and research to indicate the talking points being wheeled into the discussion are mostly facile and misconstrued to stoke fears, much like we did already over homosexuality?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#620

Post by IshKebab » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #135

dang wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is for topics that gratify intellectual curiosity, not "software development". Please see the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . You're certainly right that this is an inflammatory topic with strong political and ideological overlap, and as the guidelines explain, we don't want flamewar here, and we don't want ideological or political battle. The site exists for intellectual curios…

> HN is for topics that gratify intellectual curiosity I think that's the problem with a topic like this on HN. There will be little learning going on, with many statements made with certainty by individuals that have never studied any of these concepts in any detail. The level of dismissal in the comments is itself a reason to pull the plug.

You don't have to read the comments. The article itself was very good I thought.