A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#591

Post by sophacles » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

handmodel wrote: post #133

mike00632 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

I don't think that is what commenter is saying. I, personally, of course defer to nicknames and pronouns. I think it is more similar to race-blind versus race-conscious policies - along with gender-blind versus gernder-concious. Is it better to assume that men and women are pretty much the same in academia and each are capable of the same thing? Or is it better to assume that men and women are intrinsically better at…

It's certainly consistent. Worldview happens as a result of experiences - if ones biological sex and/or gender is used as a reason to allow or deny certain experiences to someone, then maybe it affects their worldview, no?

This is different than whether the gating on biological sex makes sense.

(Note I don't mean strictly mechanical stuff like peeing your name into the snow, I'm talking about things like teachers "not wasting time on helping girls understand math"[1] - because I suspect that teachers not helping girls with math is probably more causal to fewer women in math than their vaginas.

[1] I've personally heard math teachers say this, and heard stories of others saying it too.)

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#592

Post by kwanbix » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

Djvacto wrote: post #480

kwanbix wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was natural an used by all, it could be, but it in this case it was not natural, not used or liked by all, and forced. For example, thief's use their own words and it is not considered part of Spanish for example. They started with gender ideology and then started to escalate. And it is not more inclusive if you force me to leave my believes. If you want to be called "les", and you ask nice, I will probably hav…

Do you have any more information on the abortion policy you're using as a comparison? Tried to guess which country you were referring to but couldn't find concrete info after a bit of googling. I don't think the comparison between using more inclusive language to refer to people, and you being forced to abandon your beliefs, makes much sense. Putting aside potential issues with beliefs and their effect on a person's…

This is in Argentina.

MY MISTAKE: apparently the law does allow a doctor to say no for his believes. I cannot edit the previous post.

Again, so this people today say that you have to say "les", what prevents me from saying I am not filling included, I want everybody to start saying "lus" or "chimichangas" for that matter? The problem for me is that they force you to behave however they want you to behave.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#593

Post by heterodoxxed » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #587

john-radio wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No claim containing the string "is not recommended by anyone" will hold up, since eventually it's easy enough to find someone (probably a troll) who does recommend X practice. But the post that you're replying to, in general, holds up. "Gender reassignment surgery is typically only available to those 18 and older in the United States." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag...

Define "gender reassignment surgery", please. Are we talking about a top operation, or a bottom one? Do mastectomies count as gender reassignment, or only if genitals are involved? Because if you include top surgery, then https://wng.org/roundups/state-mandates-payment-for-children... says that where I live in California it is legal, and insurance must pay for it.

| grounded in facts and Biblical truth

You're going to have to come up with a better source.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#594

Post by alisonkisk » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

john-radio wrote: post #521

alisonkisk wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone have evidence to challenge this claim of fact? Otherswise it's useful information.

No claim containing the string "is not recommended by anyone" will hold up, since eventually it's easy enough to find someone (probably a troll) who does recommend X practice. But the post that you're replying to, in general, holds up. "Gender reassignment surgery is typically only available to those 18 and older in the United States." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag...

"typically" is bearing a lot of load there, and GRS is a broad term.

Double mastectomy is practiced, at least:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abst...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#595

Post by zapdrive » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

Slightly off topic, but where can I get some popcorn?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#596

Post by kaitai » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

freemint wrote: post #508

caeril wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

I think the difference between treatment of mtf and ftm can be mostly boiled down to difference how males being female spaces VS females being in male spaces is perceived. For trans exclusionary feminists one is the patriarchy coming to female protective places and females claiming their place and undermining the patriarchy. As for parents males being less susceptible to forceful sexual exploitation is true but there…

The protection of female virtue is also an enormously successful political tactic, from the "yellow peril" in the late 1890s in Europe and the US to the "white slavery" panic (specifically referring to the cultural phenomenon in the US that gave rise to the 1910 Mann Act; check out the contrasting commentary of Emma Goldman and Rose Livingston) to the murder of Emmett Till and the burning down of Black Wall Street in Tulsa -- all of these are really responses to larger questions of opportunity and freedom of movement for folks that crystalize in the threat to a white woman's sexual virtue and the justification of violent response to crush the threat.

The bathroom bills, the panic over sports, the violence trans and gender-nonconforming people encounter (especially on racialized lines) -- it's all part of a larger political narrative. As you can see from the comments on this HN thread, you get a daddy all worked up about his daughter's virtue/place in life and you can move political mountains because it is an Existential Threat that Must Be Removed. That's weaponizable in a way that talking about military spending or tax law or gerrymandering is not.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#597

Post by IncRnd » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #321

IncRnd wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This would mean throwing out a lot of the more epheremeral complaints "I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Let's fix that part, then. Because there are going to be scary women too. Do you recognize that there are actual reasons that a woman might not want to go into a bathroom with 5 men in it?

It took a lot of mental self-awareness on my part, and reading a lot of such statements, to recognise how strongly I've been mentally programmed (brainwashed) by society to think of men as evil , and not even flinch when I used to read statements like the one above (implying / assuming that men are, by default, extremely violent and dangerous, and that everyone is justified by judging every man as such). It's easier…

Classes of people are different from each other. That's not to say that one person is better than another. It's also not saying that any class of person is better than another. It is saying that all people are different, and there are classes of people, such as men, women, blacks, whites, trans, cis, and all sorts of classifications that differ in aggregate.

The reason we humans can get through life is by discriminating, in the sense of distinguishing, classes of people. This is NOT prejudice but is sensible. After all, there is a difference between discrimination and prejudice.

Please consider this: "Honey, stay here. Don't play with those 5 men at the end of the block." Are all strangers bad? Are all men bad? Are older people bad? Are all people at the end of the block bad? No, of course not. But, we need to remain sensible to circumstances and sensitive to people's situations.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#598

Post by eropple » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #535

deadite wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These ground exclusively concern themselves with trans-women. I second this. Maybe it's some echo chamber effect or a minority stirring shit up, but I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? I…

>I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? It's really not that hard to understand. It's the same sort of thinking that motivates the slogan "don't punch down". Males aren't threatened by females identifying as men. But females are threatened by males identify…

Seeing as how the historical perspective is almost directly reversed from what you claim, I'm going to have to be skeptical about this. The European-historical aversion to largely one-way nonconforming to gender and sexual roles (men acting as women being a problem, ditto male homosexual behavior) is pretty explicitly due to a rejection of (heterosexual) masculinity translating as a threat to that (heterosexual) masculinity.

Those currents run deep, and run through to today. And that's not to say that "but a guy might go in the girls' bathroom!" is not what bigots say, because as a prima facie claim that's certainly common--but I very much doubt, were we to see some unvarnished honesty, that bathroom fears are actually a primary motivator rather than a convenient battleground.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#599

Post by ixacto » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

afpx wrote: post #157

ixacto wrote: post #27

Freedom of expression/free speech doesn’t mean freedom not to be offended or that you have to agree with the views. If we do not support even the most offensive speech then we risk a very slippery slope leading to censorship and 1984.

Should teachers be allowed to say anything they want to students, regardless if it offends them? If a student asks a teacher not to call them something that offends them, is the teacher required to stop using the slur?

Yes they should offend their students because history is offensive.

We should also teach about the Holocaust and read the uncensored version of huckleberry Finn, even though it may be offensive.

People (students) will be offended but they will learn how history has changed, be able to think for themselves, and not fall into ideological line. If this scares the left/right establishments that is a great thing.

Living in a 1-party state would suck.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#600

Post by kaitai » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #470

pavlov wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ” sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have” This is such a bizarre leap of logic. Trans women are the pariahs of contemporary Western society. Yet the same people who uphold this subhuman status also assume that rapists are nefariously claiming trans female identity. That’s not how rapists operate! They seek positions of power. Trans women are downtrodden and powerless — the least attractive p…

I think your terminology is a bit backwards. A trans man is someone assigned female at birth but who later identifies as male. From context you seem to be talking about the hypothetical of male rapists professing they identify as trans women. A person born male who later identifies as a woman is a trans woman.

I thought that was the idea being sold by Republicans in the US, though, that a woman who is trans is going to be lurking in the bathroom to rape your daughter after beating her in tennis?