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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#581
post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this rate limiting on commenting ever going to be lifted or is it permanent?

We're happy to take off rate limits if people give us some reason to believe that they sincerely intend to follow the site guidelines in the future.

Ok I promise. My last topics I posted on were about this, a security blog post, the news, Simone Biles and accents. I do actually talk about lots of topics on HN but I tend to get drawn into political discussions which are replied to a lot more. Also it's hard for me not to respond when someone calls me a bigot, etc. I'm definitely not on HN just to troll about politics. I really think it's unfair to say I'm on HN to "battle" anyone. I don't think my comments here have been particularly confrontational?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#582

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

"There are more blind people than trans people. There are more people with Alzheimer's than trans people. There are more people in the US who have lost a limb than trans people."

There are more white people than black people in the US. More Christian people than Jewish people. More able-bodied people than disabled people. More descendants of immigrants than Native Americans.

That's what makes all these people minorities.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#583
post #530
post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a claim about ideology. You made a claim about medical professionals. That is not particularly relevant to what I claimed. I stand by my claim. The online echo chambers that children, including my own, seek out very much push the ideology that any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment t…

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

The concepts of "man" and "woman" are already doing a lot of work in language, society, law, etc. Redefining those terms would cause/is causing a lot of upheaval.

Think of the concepts of "citizen", "resident", "immigrant", "ex-pat", "DREAMer", etc - all terms related to where someone lives and what set of laws applies to them. Regardless of how the person feels, the label isn't just for their own sake. Someone can be a citizen and an immigrant if they are naturalized, saying someone is a resident implies (but not definitely) that they are not a citizen, ex-pats are assumed to be temporarily in the place where they reside.

Labelling trans women as women is a lossy translation that ignores a lot of societal edge cases.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#585
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them" This isn't actually a thing. Certain factions who would prefer trans people cease to exist push this idea that kids are on this hot new meme of getting their bits flipped before reaching the age of consent, but it is simply not a thing. No top surgery, either. It just isn't a thing. It's a wild fantasy. The only thing kids can go on are puberty bl…

Note that there's comparatively little benefit to puberty blockers in F2M cases, because other than the obvious case of breasts, most secondary sex characteristics, even post puberty, can be radically altered by taking male hormones. So you get very little benefit, but the risk side is a lot less clear. For the same reason, most F2M's will be better off delaying both hormonal and surgical transition until well after…

There are concerns about erroneous transitions. There also substanctial factions who loudly proclaim their preference that trans people (and homosexual) do not exist, and openly justify their claims with centuries-old supernatural myths.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#586
post #302

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

> Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men.

One of the interesting things about spending the last few years studying Western European post-Roman history has been the discovery that, in the West, there has historically been relatively little resistance to AFAB folks "presenting" (speaking of the interpretation at the time--the dichotomy between "presenting" and "being" is one I am thoroughly not qualified to negotiate) as male unless tied into homophobia. There are historical examples of folks who outwardly identify as women taking on male roles in monastic life, and it's often portrayed as a good and pious thing.

The reverse, it seems, is generally not true, though not exclusively so. I've read of, but don't have offhand, accounts of Church investigation into "male nuns" that ruled that the erstwhile offender, a male who had suffered prepubescent genital damage, had committed no crime being raised by a particular convent as a woman. But cases going the other way round are much more common.

In terms of today's relations, however, my intuition is that the fear regarding transwomen is that it's largely a performative flavor of misogyny and the fear of those of the "superior" set somehow damaging all men, much as the performative flavor of homophobia does the same with regards to gay men but shockingly much rarely with regards to bisexual or homosexual women. But, of course, that is just an intuition.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone have evidence to challenge this claim of fact? Otherswise it's useful information.

No claim containing the string "is not recommended by anyone" will hold up, since eventually it's easy enough to find someone (probably a troll) who does recommend X practice. But the post that you're replying to, in general, holds up. "Gender reassignment surgery is typically only available to those 18 and older in the United States." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag...

Define "gender reassignment surgery", please.

Are we talking about a top operation, or a bottom one? Do mastectomies count as gender reassignment, or only if genitals are involved?

Because if you include top surgery, then https://wng.org/roundups/state-mandates-payment-for-children... says that where I live in California it is legal, and insurance must pay for it.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it bluntly, this is irrelevant. You put "debate" in quotes like it's somehow a dirty word, which is shocking and depressing to me. I DO care about what real transgender people have to say, and to be honest, especially on college campuses in the US, it is very easy to see they have a voice and are able to speak there opinion. I have no idea whether this academic's opinion is one I agree with. Primarily because…

She was allowed to speak far more than any trans people has been allowed to speak - she is speaking on The Economist. I do not see any trans people speaking on The Economist. The same applies across the entirety of published British media. That you willfully ignore this epistemological injustice, does not render it irrelevant. The university ground is one of the very few places where real transgender people, along wi…

I am not British, so I can't quite comment as well on the media landscape there, but I see tons of articles about transgender issues, with lots of commentary by trans people, in mainstream American media. A few simple examples:

1. https://www.newsweek.com/trans-air-force-officer-trump-ban-1...

2. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/opinion/transgender...

3. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trangende...

And your last paragraph about claiming people are debating about forcing certain people to, as you put it, "again and again defend their own existence", is what I find so frustrating, because this is absolutely NOT what is going on in this instance. Yes, there are a tons of examples where this DOES happen, but lumping all honest debate about difficult problems (say, how does one determine if someone is eligible to compete in women's-only sports) as "defending your own existence" is just silencing all views that don't 100% agree with you.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who have had trauma have my empathy, but I really don't think there's a tenable path forward besides dispassionate debate. How do we work through a conflict without dispassionate debate? If trans people insist that the only parties to the debate are trans people or those who already agree with them (ignoring that trans people aren't the homogeneous entity that activists make them out to be), then how are they…

> I really don't think there's a tenable path forward besides dispassionate debate. How do we work through a conflict without dispassionate debate? I will explain my understanding of the answer. I do not claim my answer is the right one, but it is what I see. Let’s say there are two groups. One group we will call a marginalized minority and another group we will call the majority or dominant group. The answer is not…

I appreciate your perspective. I agree with a lot, including that trans people are legitimately marginalized in our society in some measure (certainly the extent to which authorities fail to investigate murders of trans victims is abhorrent).

> The answer is not for the marginalized people and the dominant group to debate directly.

To be clear, this isn't "trans people" vs "non-trans people". There are lots of trans people who don't think it's appropriate to change our bathroom policies and non-trans people who think we should change those policies. The parties to the debate are different ideologies, not different trans/non-trans identities.

With respect to your steps vs debate, I think your steps describe a national debate, except for the earlier caveat that the debate isn't "trans vs non-trans" but rather different ideological positions and also that at any given moment different individuals in the debate (on any side) are at different "steps" in the process, and also that individuals on all sides vary in their willingness to listen or participate in good faith.

So basically a debate is a mess because people aren't uniformly acting in good faith nor are they uniformly disciplined about listening before speaking nor are they acting in synchrony (everyone within a group meets to listen to an ambassador for the other group, and then carefully considers together, and so on). However, over the course of months or years, things do tend to converge in a direction that most people feel pretty good about. That's what progress looks like.

> At no point in that course of action do random members of the dominant group need to discuss these changes with members of the marginalized group. As a white person I simply do not challenge what people of color say. There is no need for me to challenge them and I recognize that as a member of the dominant group it could be emotionally distressful for them to have to discuss it with me.

With respect, I disagree in the strongest possible terms here. No doubt you mean well, but black people and white people are equal, and race doesn't confer anyone with either authority or fragility with respect to having their positions criticized. If any given black person or white person feels triggered (in the clinical, not pejorative, sense), they are certainly not obligated to engage with the criticism, but to assume that someone is fragile on the basis of their race is the height of racism (however well intended).

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By expunging, shaming, expelling, disinviting, cancelling, eschewing, not offering positions, denying grants, avoiding publication, demoting those that don't meet the requirements of a radical orthodoxy. Noam Chomsky of all people (!), and a bunch of other staunchly centre-left luminaries had to take out a full page ad in Harper's to make the point. [2] How far would an ugly trend have to exhibit itself in order for…

The late (devout Christian!) William Stuntz wrote an entire book (in front of me right now) about the overbearing justice system and and never got cancelled for it.

Pinker's mistake wasn't about 'the justice system' - it was disagreeing with BLM populist orthodoxy.

It's revolutionary 'Reign of Terror' stuff around ostracizing the impure (i.e. Trumpers destroying Romneys, Rubios), not academic disagreement.

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