A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#371

Post by dgb23 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

bob_roberts wrote: post #159

tetranomiga wrote: post #14

Gender politics is a cancer on the left, even though I agree with it, it takes up so much time and energy away from things that would benefit everybody including trans people, like universal healthcare, better employee protection laws and better, more available education. Such a small percentage of the population has been the center point of so much discussion and debate, and for what benefit? All I see it doing is g…

> Such a small percentage of the population That's not a good argument for the left to stop defending trans people's rights.

It’s almost like those who are opposing acceptance are slowing things down for little reason.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#372

Post by f154hfds » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

plank_time wrote: post #337

f154hfds wrote: post #327

I can't imagine what this debate must feel like to someone who grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Until 10 years ago gay marriage wasn't official policy of Obama or Clinton or I believe the majority of the Democratic party. The pace is dizzying. It feels like a race to the bottom, but I don't know where the bottom even is. Without push back this could spell the end of women's sports, women's prisons - heck, pretty m…

> Until 10 years ago gay marriage wasn't official policy of Obama I think you are misremembering. Obama was actively against gay marriage and defended his views against gay marriage through the 2012 election. I think Biden was the one to first broach the topic in 2014 with his active support for it.

I think that's what I'm saying too unless I misunderstand. 2012 was 9 years ago, and Obama was anti gay marriage. So was Clinton for that matter until about 2015. https://www.eqca.org/hillary-clinton-has-a-new-position-on-s...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#373

Post by distrill » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #176

rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

> This would mean throwing out a lot of the more epheremeral complaints "I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Let's fix that part, then. Because there are going to be scary women too. Do you recognize that there are actual reasons that a woman might not want to go into a bathroom with 5 men in it?

There are other solutions than what you're describing. I've been in a number of bars with unsexed bathrooms, where the sinks are all in the open and there are private secure individual stalls. I don't know that this is the best solution, but it does remove the gender distinction from the bathrooms and it certainly isn't "a bathroom with 5 men in it".

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#374

Post by MontyCarloHall » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

cheeseomlit wrote: post #266

saxonww wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that sex and gender are different though; gender _is_ a social construct. I think lack of agreement on this is a big part of the issue right now. Edit: as pointed out below, gender roles are something we've made up, but preferences and behavior themselves (which we're calling gender) are not. Still separate from sex.

This distinction doesn't sit right with me though. What is Gender really, in the modern definition (since it seems to have changed over the years)? From what I gather it's a way for people to tell others that one of their physical characteristics (Sex) does not match their mental state (Gender). To me this doesn't really seem like a positive thing, it comes off like a potentially harmful delusion from someone who can…

As I wrote in another comment, trans individuals’ gender identity is hardwired to the same extent that people’s sexual orientation is hardwired, so there must be some innate physiological component to gender identity. My guess is it’s neurological, since there aren’t discernible hormonal, genetic, or anatomical differences between trans and cis people.

Your analogies don’t apply because, with the exception of age (mental age vs. physical age), there is no mental analog to race, height, eye color, etc.

I’d analogize gender identity to sexual orientation: there is nothing physiological that distinguishes heterosexual people from homosexual people, but the former are hardwired to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex, while the latter are hardwired to be sexually attracted to members of the same sex.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#375

Post by joe_the_user » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #99

oofabz wrote: post #98

I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.

HN is for topics that gratify intellectual curiosity, not "software development". Please see the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . You're certainly right that this is an inflammatory topic with strong political and ideological overlap, and as the guidelines explain, we don't want flamewar here, and we don't want ideological or political battle. The site exists for intellectual curios…

I too like nuanced discussion on HN and I generally don't shy from political questions.

That said, HN is the watering hole for people with multiple political approaches on a fairly wide spectrum.

I think debate between these people is best facilitated by prompts and articles which raise multiple nuanced questions. And I think we do have useful debates at this point.

What isn't useful is something like an overt manifesto for one or another "side" on this political spectrum. And HN generally avoids such things.

But there's a kind of article, like this one imo, that is more or less a manifesto - an article that stake out a position and only give apparent gestures at balance. These have the same low-quality potential as manifestos. In important questions, it's unfortunate have a lot of uninformed posts even when they aren't flame bait.

In the case of the present article, I don't think readers of the article will come away with any greater understanding of "Gender Theory" and what gives rise to it and so it's not really a generator of good quality discussion even when people are not shouting at each.

Edit: Another thing I should add is that in the case of article that are effectively manifestos, upvotes and downvotes are going to gravitate to being just around the popularity of various positions and that too lowers the quality of discussion.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#376

Post by golemiprague » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #252

newsbinator wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I defer to nicknames, but if the State or my university or my company forced me to, on pain of getting fired, expelled, fined, or worse, then I wouldn't want to defer to nicknames anymore on principle. I don't care what gender someone calls themselves, and as a nice person I'll try to remember and use it, so long as they don't attempt to get me fired if I get it wrong.

What if you insist on calling that person by the wrong name even though you know it's not what they prefer? That seems like a pretty good example of creating a toxic work environment and you should be fired over it.

[dead]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#377

Post by nostromo » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #350

caeril wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

> Mormons are probably another group due to the reliance of their theology on binary gender, but I don't see them as being particularly vocal on this topic. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints doesn't appear to feel threatened by transgender rights. At least, not according to official stances here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/transgender

I'm sorry to be so frank, but this is more of the same mormon bullshit.

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is the typical line. The problem is our actions and identity are often intrinsically linked.

They have the same stance for gay people. "It's ok to be gay, god still loves you! The only catch is you can't ever have a romantic relationship with the person you love. If you do you'll be excommunicated and ostracized from your family. No biggy! God bless!"

Nobody wants this sort of faux compassion.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#378

Post by JohnBooty » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #293

JohnBooty wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know anything about the subject of the linked article, nor her views. Did not venture past the pay/registration wall. I have no opinion about her. zero-tolerance to anybody questioning the current dogma is seen everywhere Generally, of course dogma should be questioned. However, academic freedom does not mean that universities must provide a platform to literally anybody that wants one. Their resources are f…

Why are publicly funded institutions allowed to decide who's opinion matters and whose doesn't? Assuming the discussion is poised and not straight up slandering nonsense, what harm does it do? Are we trying to curtail freedom of speech? They shouldn't be allowed to take a stance because they are the government. Although for some reason colleges can operate as some separate entity that just happens to siphon governmen…

    Why are publicly funded institutions allowed to 
    decide who's opinion matters and whose doesn't?

At a very minimum, there are real-world constraints at work.

There are a limited number of lecture halls and auditoriums. It costs money to run the facilities. Staff is required to maintain them. Somebody has to sweep the floors. There are heating and cooling bills to be paid and new boilers to be purchased every few decades. There are a limited number of hours available in students' academic careers.

A university cannot provide platforms for an unlimited number of professors and guest speakers; a student cannot attend an unlimited number of talks/lectures.

Therefore it is obvious. Choices must be made. One could even say that this curation is one of the most elementary duties of an educational institution.

What's your alternative? Should publicly funded institutions make zero curatorial choices whatsoever? Should literally anybody be able to teach there? If that is not your position, then you surely accept that some curation needs to occur.

This is not incompatible with the wishes of the people nor does it suggest that educational institutions should have dictatorial carte blanche. They must make choices, but must also be accountable to the public.

    Are we trying to curtail freedom of speech?

No.

Nobody is arguing that the subject of the linked article should be barred from expressing her views. This is strictly a question about who should (or should not) be obligated to give her a soapbox and a megaphone.

    They shouldn't be allowed to take a stance 
    because they are the government.

There would be considerable benefits to getting the government out of the education business entirely. The downsides would be considerable as well.

It would be worth looking for examples of times and places when government kept its nose out of education entirely. I do not think you will enjoy the correlation between "governments disinterested in education" and... well, anything good.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#379

Post by plank_time » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #339

plank_time wrote: post #218

I think we should accommodate trans people as much as we can, up to and including letting them be legally be considered the sex of their belief as long as they have transitioned to some degree, by taking hormones or surgery. However, I disagree with getting rid of biological sex. It’s absurd. Even down to the genetic level there is a biological definition of male and female and to say there isn’t is anti-science. We…

>I think we should accommodate trans people as much as we can, up to and including letting them be legally be considered the sex of their belief as long as they have transitioned to some degree, by taking hormones or surgery. See as they make up a smaller minority than most minority people in the US, I personally think that helping poor and working class people first would uplift them a lot quicker than letting trans…

I don’t think there’s an if/else clause. Allowing trans women to legally be claimed as women is really just an adjustment in a database, as well as just treating people the way they want to be treated. It doesn’t cost anything to be respectful to people regardless of who they are.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#380

Post by jolux » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

deadite wrote: post #319

caeril wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

>Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These ground exclusively concern themselves with trans-women. I second this. Maybe it's some echo chamber effect or a minority stirring shit up, but I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? I…

TERFs primarily don't focus on trans men because they see them as misguided women. You can find many TERFs blaming trans women and "gender ideology" for convincing butch-identified lesbians that they're actually straight men. Personally I think this denies trans men the dignity and autonomy to define themselves as they see fit, but then again, I would say that, I'm trans.