Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#281

Post by kenjackson » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

gotoeleven wrote: post #177

asoneth wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your second point that we have over-fitted education to optimize standardized test scores to the determent of encouraging intelligence. But at least from my personal network developed from growing up in a working-class town and eventually living in extremely wealthy neighborhoods in extremely wealthy cities I have not noticed a strong relationship between "the ability to DO THINGS" and someone's social o…

Your anecdotes not withstanding, it is a myth that most rich people inherited their wealth. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/majority-of-the-worlds-riche... Maybe you don't trust this source but there are many others like it. This bizarre push to make everyone think that there's no meritocracy, which I guess goes hand in hand with the fashionableness of being a victim, is cynical poison being driven by people with rad…

> it is a myth that most rich people inherited their wealth.

No one here has said that. More importantly, your link doesn't dispute that either. It simply says that billionaires, who are on the extreme, don't inherit most of their wealth -- despite the fact that 45% of them at least partially did so.

I've long argued that until we send all kids, rich and poor, to academies at birth with no further contact or tracing to their parents, we won't really understand the full impact of advantages bestowed by wealthy parents.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#282

Post by xyzzyz » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #187

xyzzyz wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s exactly how the USA was originally designed to work, and how it originally worked up until early-to-mid 20th century. It was only then when a bunch of power grabbing politicians, along with a bunch of complicit elements in the judicial apparatus, have twisted the US into completely different system that we now get to suffer from.

It’s not just power-grabbing politicians. It’s what the populace desires. Look at the overwhelming support for something like universal health care. That is a massive expansion of federal power. A large number of Americans desire massive federal power.

You could easily implement universal healthcare on a state-by-state basis. This is just another excuse for federalization by power-grabbers.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#283

Post by xyzzyz » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

robocat wrote: post #214

xyzzyz wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in Nebraska, can you find a strong correlation between funding levels and schools performance? I asked you for examples, can you find any? Importantly, if in many states the school funding is equalized, and yet we still have wide difference in performance between good and bad schools, why would anyone expect that changing funding structure in Nebraska would change school outcomes in a significant way? If school f…

> can you find a strong correlation between funding levels and schools performance In New Zealand there is a negative correlation. The performance of schools in New Zealand is very strongly correlated with “the decile” which is how wealthy the area where the school is located (i.e. how well off the parents are correlates with how well their children do academically). The schools in areas of poverty get more state fun…

> I am just pointing out that in New Zealand the main correlation for average student ability is their home, not their school.

Right. Whatever the casual mechanism is at play, increasing funding of schools is not going to make much of a difference for the kids -- it will, though, for employees of the school systems.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#284

Post by kenjackson » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #159

John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

> chronically underfunding schools In Washington State, for decades there was a big push to "fully fund" the schools. They finally got their way a couple years back, i.e. just about everything they wanted. There has been zero improvement in results. There has been no further mention of "fully funding" the schools in the press since, but the demands for more and more money for the schools have not abated at all. Edit:…

You do realize this is about where the money was coming from. The state had a constitutional mandate to fund education at a certain level and weren't doing so. Local and federal funding was making up the gap.

You won't see any impact to education because there isn't more money coming to education as a result of this ruling. Rather more money can flow from federal and local gov't to other programs (or in theory taxes could be lowered). This case is about funding sources more than funding amounts.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#285

Post by dantheman » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #229

viscanti wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US could create an amendment to say something like "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people". Which would give individual States the right to control a lot of things. Is that kind of what you're thinking?

The interstate highway system and the freedom of movement between the states greatly restricts the ability for states to have meaningfully different policies from one another. A popular policy that works for the current population of the state may become an economic disaster once residents of other states move in to join the action.

That's why it's the Eisenhower interstate system. They could have passed an amendment, but instead they jammed it in as part of national defense.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#286

Post by ozim » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #108

TrackerFF wrote: post #19

In a lot of European countries, a robust social safety net is the great equalizer. You don't get locked up to work in order to afford healthcare, food, etc. - and are thus more free to take chances. Furthermore, strong labor laws have compressed salaries towards the mean, so people are not locking themselves into poverty by working low-wage / low-skill work, but there's a difference enough that people are incentivize…

> In a lot of European countries, a robust social safety net is the great equalizer. You don't get locked up to work in order to afford healthcare, food, etc. - and are thus more free to take chances. That is a great explanation in theory, but simply does not work out in practice. In order to support the safety net, the EU has to impose several regulations that remove the ability of people to 'take chances', such as…

Yes EU does not have more VC money or crazy startup unicorns but also it has a lot less bums dying on the street and people ruined by medical bills.

There is no need to help Elon Musk or Travis Kalanick to take chances. There is a need for average Joe to be able to say "f*k it I am quitting" so he can get something better.

That is why topic of this submission is about equalizing society.

So we want to have a society where people are not dying on the streets but maybe going to Mars will take us longer.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#287

Post by seoaeu » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

shados wrote: post #172

only_as_i_fall wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. How do you define that though? Do you consider someone working a minimum wage job full-time to be in this category? Someone making $15-20 an hour but without any real opportunity for advancement? I don't understand the criteria.

It's probably oversimplified but the idea is there. Maybe it would be better put as "the ability to do things the person next to you can't or won't do". Being a cashier for a fast food joint on night shift is absolute hell on your mental and physical health, it takes a ton of endurance, and is all around not very pleasant. But a lot of people have that endurance and the ability to power through it. Being a cab driver…

Amusing this definition of "the ability to do things the person next to you can't or won't do" basically contradicts the idea that DO THINGS can possibly be a great equalizer. Any equality that only some people can have, is pretty much by definition not equality.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#288

Post by mcguire » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #211

WalterBright wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> chronically underfunding schools In Washington State, for decades there was a big push to "fully fund" the schools. They finally got their way a couple years back, i.e. just about everything they wanted. There has been zero improvement in results. There has been no further mention of "fully funding" the schools in the press since, but the demands for more and more money for the schools have not abated at all. Edit:…

Things like that puzzle me. Baltimore, MD high school graduation rate is under 70% [1]. They spend $18k per student [2] - more than 45 other states on average [3] Citizens of Baltimore even elected a black grassroot mayor who understands needs of the community [4] and Maryland's police brutality is among the lowest in the country [5]. Yet something doesn't work. WHY? [1] https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimor…

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h9mp8cWP7GQfrthZ1A4ccTfrHlx...

Looks like Baltimore bit big into the charter school idea, where the cost-per-student at the school level is apparently somewhat higher (30%, $10,000 vs $7,900 judging by the first couple of pages of the per-school table). Administration is about 11% of the expenses. Interestingly, the City Schools' "District Offices" average $174,000 per "Full-Time Equivalent" for whatever that's worth.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#289

Post by EricE » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #180

asoneth wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your second point that we have over-fitted education to optimize standardized test scores to the determent of encouraging intelligence. But at least from my personal network developed from growing up in a working-class town and eventually living in extremely wealthy neighborhoods in extremely wealthy cities I have not noticed a strong relationship between "the ability to DO THINGS" and someone's social o…

>I have not noticed a strong relationship between "the ability to DO THINGS" and someone's social or economic status. Are we talking status relative to others or relative to the starting position? There will always be the deadbeat child of someone wealthy who's still wealthier than you but all the "doers" I know have climbed the socioeconomic ladder at least a couple rungs in their adult lives.

"Are we talking status relative to others or relative to the starting position?"

And what of it? There has never been a time in human history where starting position has mattered less. NONE!

Don't just take my word for it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOiQgleiRtU

Also - think of what a better place it would be if that Don Lemon who was tired of race bating had survived and had got his wish? How sad we are where we are today - and ironically he's one of the front line contributors to it too!

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#290

Post by asoneth » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

kansface wrote: post #251

asoneth wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your second point that we have over-fitted education to optimize standardized test scores to the determent of encouraging intelligence. But at least from my personal network developed from growing up in a working-class town and eventually living in extremely wealthy neighborhoods in extremely wealthy cities I have not noticed a strong relationship between "the ability to DO THINGS" and someone's social o…

Intelligence, conscientiousness, affluence/social capital- pick any two and you get success on average. That’s about all there is to it. Success could look like making a bunch of money, starting a business, doing research, making interesting art. The point is a smart, hard working person can pretty much choose to do anything and an intelligent person will do fine with an infinite runway regardless of work ethic, etc.…

> Intelligence, conscientiousness, affluence/social capital

Agreed that these are important factors in success, but in practice they don't seem to be equivalent in importance.

An unsuccessful person who lacks intelligence or conscientiousness but was born into affluence in the US is more likely to remain higher on the socioeconomic ladder than a successful person who has both intelligence and conscientiousness but was born poor.

That said, I believe that with hard work and intelligence it is possible for someone to move up no matter their starting point and we should celebrate the famous outliers who lept up the ladder. But it's also responsible to acknowledge that they are famous because they are outliers and that most people seem to end up within a rung or two of their parents.