A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#181

Post by smoldesu » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

This was ironically one of the things that was hardest about coming out as gay, for me. Nobody ever treated me the same way again. I was either uncomfortably praised or silently judged, with practically no in-between. Suffice to say, my sexuality is on a need-to-know basis, now.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#182

Post by MyHypatia » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #160

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

> house intact trans-women Why would a rapist stop wanting to rape regardless of the state of their genitals? Is sexual violation with a penis so much more horrific than other violations it deserves special consideration?

Yes, because women can get pregnant. Then not only do you have to deal with trauma of your sexual assault, you have to deal with the trauma of having a child born from that sexual assault or have an abortion.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#183

Post by maybeOneDay » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #114

oofabz wrote: post #98

I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.

For what it's worth, I like that we discuss controversial topics here if only because it's the only online forum I'm aware of where this stuff can be discussed with any degree of productive dialogue or without a constant barrage of bad faith (which isn't to say there aren't bad faith commenters here, but the signal/noise ratio is much higher here).

In my experience browsing HN almost daily, over the last year it has become something of an echo chamber for "anti woke" lines of thinking. I've seen little to no healthy discussion on the topic - by which I mean productive disagreement. It's usually just a top comment decrying twitter/etc and then a pile on of agreement.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#184

Post by wetmore » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #150

The same has occurred in regards to race. For decades the ideological left preached, quite aggressively and consistently, that we must move to a post racial society, that race should not matter. This was the clear majority belief on the left as recently as the beginning of Obama's first term. My entire childhood was filled with that preached gospel: a person's character is what matters, do not pay attention to their…

I think the "they" in your post is actually a bunch of disparate groups. You are acting like there is internal inconsistency, but that's because the conflicting beliefs came out of different camps.

Anyway, I think most people in support of the "new" ideology, as you call it, would say that the "old" ideology was flawed. Some might say it was bullshit, some might just say it was misguided or overly hopeful.

Ideas change over time, I'm not sure why you think society's views on race should remain static, especially considering that the Civil Rights Movement was only a few generations ago. Every generation our theories of race change.

The ideological right has also changed its stance on a lot of things. Do you also think that makes them have no credibility?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#185

Post by f38zf5vdt » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #165

bachmeier wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HN is for topics that gratify intellectual curiosity I think that's the problem with a topic like this on HN. There will be little learning going on, with many statements made with certainty by individuals that have never studied any of these concepts in any detail. The level of dismissal in the comments is itself a reason to pull the plug.

That's certainly a big problem, but HN can't be a site for intellectual curiosity and at the same time exclude every story with political or ideological overlap. People sometimes imagine that that would be better, but only in the context of a specific story or thread they don't like. If you try to imagine it as a general policy it breaks down altogether. Nor would this community accept such severe restrictions on the…

It feels like why subreddits or /pol/ exist: to segregate that to a place where people are most interested.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#186

Post by staplers » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #49

ixacto wrote: post #27

Freedom of expression/free speech doesn’t mean freedom not to be offended or that you have to agree with the views. If we do not support even the most offensive speech then we risk a very slippery slope leading to censorship and 1984.

[flagged]

Being pro-marxist 70 years ago meant jail time. It's always been this way, just for a different sect of people.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#187

Post by dekhn » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

danielodievich wrote: post #138

One of my favorite sci-fi authors is Ian M. Banks (discussed here on HN with regularity). His Culture series describe a post-scarcity interstellar society of human(oid)s who among many, many things can change their own gender just by thinking about it. After suitable body alteration time, you can be a male, female, or even something in between (that happens to be important part of one of the characters in one of the…

You may also enjoy some of John Varley's early work (the short stories and books about the Eight Worlds). Physical sex changes (by cloning a new body and plopping the brain in, plus some extra "science magic" to make that work) are routine.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#188

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

just_to_reply wrote: post #140

mike00632 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

It's not just like a nickname, though. It's about who you're willing to date, who is put in which prison or who is allowed to compete in which sports competitions.

[deleted]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#189

Post by bosswipe » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

f38zf5vdt wrote: post #105

oofabz wrote: post #98

I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.

For a while I'd really enjoyed HackerNews for the lack of politics. It was great not to hear about Trump during the Trump presidency, but since then and COVID times I find more and more highly politicized editorials being propelled to the top of the front page. I'm pretty close to no longer visiting here.

I agree. There also seems to be more right-wing outrage-of-the-day bubbling up here.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#190

Post by freemint » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

teh_infallible wrote: post #146

lovegoblin wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Regular" women The word you're looking for is "cis".

The world you’re looking for is “real”

What you just said will understood as extremely hurtful and a purposeful attack on trans people by (some) trans people or trans advocates. Did you do that on purpose?