Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#261

Post by mcguire » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

gotoeleven wrote: post #177

asoneth wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your second point that we have over-fitted education to optimize standardized test scores to the determent of encouraging intelligence. But at least from my personal network developed from growing up in a working-class town and eventually living in extremely wealthy neighborhoods in extremely wealthy cities I have not noticed a strong relationship between "the ability to DO THINGS" and someone's social o…

Your anecdotes not withstanding, it is a myth that most rich people inherited their wealth. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/majority-of-the-worlds-riche... Maybe you don't trust this source but there are many others like it. This bizarre push to make everyone think that there's no meritocracy, which I guess goes hand in hand with the fashionableness of being a victim, is cynical poison being driven by people with rad…

Would you please define "self-made"?

From your link: "“As our society has become more meritocratic, we’ve simply replaced an aristocracy based on title, class, race and gender with a new and equally persistent aristocracy based on genes, education and parenting,” Pearlstein continued. “Unless we are prepared to engage in extensive genetic reengineering, or require that all children be brought up in state-run boarding schools, we must acknowledge that we can never achieve full equality of opportunity.”"

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#262

Post by mcguire » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

gotoeleven wrote: post #220

robocat wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your example is like saying playing NBA basketball makes you taller. His point was that there are plenty of people that don’t become wealthy even though they work hard and have hustle. And there are plenty of wealthy people that didn’t need to work hard to get it. Looking at the self-made wealthy will select for people that “do”, but that does not imply that “do” makes you wealthy.

Im not sure what your point is. Your statement >>> His point was that there are plenty of people that don’t become wealthy even though they work hard and have hustle. And there are plenty of wealthy people that didn’t need to work hard to get it. is a trivially correct, banal point. The parent comment was implying with his "I know even more people who are rich and lazy" comment something that, while it may be true fo…

"The parent comment was implying [...] something that, while it may be true for the people he encounters, is not true for society at large."

Do you have a source for that?

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#263

Post by sparrc » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

TrackerFF wrote: post #19

In a lot of European countries, a robust social safety net is the great equalizer. You don't get locked up to work in order to afford healthcare, food, etc. - and are thus more free to take chances. Furthermore, strong labor laws have compressed salaries towards the mean, so people are not locking themselves into poverty by working low-wage / low-skill work, but there's a difference enough that people are incentivize…

I'm not sure you're talking about exactly the same thing this article is talking about.

Social safety nets provide basic access to essentials and (mostly) equalize access to things like healthcare, but don't really do anything to help someone go from "poor" to "middle-class", or any other trip up the social ladder.

That person needs to do something to increase their earning potential beyond what their parents had.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#264

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

_xy8h wrote: post #52

whb07 wrote: post #15

Controlling education is a political life source for the Democratic party in the U.S. One of the largest, if not the largest, unions is the teacher's and they are a major donor to the Democratic party. Thankfully, the one good thing about the shutdowns has been the ability for parents to observe a couple things: * how little the school system cares about the child * the indoctrination and political ideas being passed…

Alright. You rendered your entire point to "hurr, left wing bad" but with just many more words. For anyone else, take a look at who keeps cutting funding to education and funneling funds to profit oriented companies before you let this guy play this kind of disingenuous game here. Especially as Reason's positions often carry the Libertarian bent of "fuck you, got mine" as the motivation to further erode the equal pla…

The current system is not producing the equal playing field that education was supposed to be. So, you whine about those suggesting school choice, but what's your solution? Because the current system isn't working, and doesn't look like it's going to start working any time soon.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#265

Post by mcguire » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #159

John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

> chronically underfunding schools In Washington State, for decades there was a big push to "fully fund" the schools. They finally got their way a couple years back, i.e. just about everything they wanted. There has been zero improvement in results. There has been no further mention of "fully funding" the schools in the press since, but the demands for more and more money for the schools have not abated at all. Edit:…

"Edit: the fully funding was in place in 2018"

How fast do you expect results?

The Washington Supreme Court decision: http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/pdf/843627.opn.pdf

"The State has failed to meet its duty under article IX, section 1 by consistently providing school districts with a level of resources that falls short of the actual costs of the basic education program. The legislature recently enacted sweeping reforms to remedy the deficiencies in the funding system, and it is currently making progress toward phasing in those reforms."

Apparently the state was calling for a level of funding, but not providing the money and requiring local taxes to make up the difference. (Hence "fully funding".)

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#266

Post by imtringued » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

wayoutthere wrote: post #24

John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

Holy hell dude, are you calling the working class lazy and the professional class hard-working?! This tells me you don’t have a lot of contact with the working class. The working class busts their asses while most software devs I know work about 2 hours a day from their couch in pajamas. Someone who works at a warehouse or fast food joint is a much harder worker than a software architect. Probably also working 60-80…

Seller market = high wages, buyer market = low wages.

That is all there is to it.

The irony about hard work is that everyone can be a hard worker so you are more likely to end up in a buyer market if that is your selling point.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#267

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

dsign wrote: post #17

> Is education no longer “a great equalizer of the conditions of men,” ... but instead a great divider? The article is very "feet on the earth", it reviews existing data and arguments, and generally advocates for a "no" as an answer to that question. But what if education were a great divider? What if--like wealth--the education gap were self-reinforcing, even across generations? To the well-educated, that seems far-…

I think it's cultural, but not perhaps in the way you describe.

Parents who believe in education often produce better-educated children. Reading to them when they're small, helping with homework when they need it, talking about college even when they're young, and just not letting them give up on school. I suspect that, at least to some degree, that is transmissable - that is, it tends to produce children who, when they are adults, will value education for their children.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#268

Post by imtringued » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #67

TrackerFF wrote: post #19

In a lot of European countries, a robust social safety net is the great equalizer. You don't get locked up to work in order to afford healthcare, food, etc. - and are thus more free to take chances. Furthermore, strong labor laws have compressed salaries towards the mean, so people are not locking themselves into poverty by working low-wage / low-skill work, but there's a difference enough that people are incentivize…

> You don't get locked up to work in order to afford healthcare, food, etc. - and are thus more free to take chances. If Europeans are more free to take chances, why is there substantially less innovation in Europe? I don't think Europe is "worse" than the US. I think Europe is optimized for the poor whereas the US is optimized for the middle class and above. There are good arguments for both of these situations. In…

Honestly, I'd say it's because the Eurozone doesn't encourage cooperation between member states.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#269

Post by nemo44x » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

rejectedandsad wrote: post #125

refurb wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, take a look at how the non-voucher system works in SF. Lottery system and if you end up with a crappy school, you either put your kid in a private school or try and game the system to get them switched. The parents who are poor don’t have the bandwidth or knowledge to do it so they just get stuck with whatever school. So you end up with the same problem. Crappy schools have kids of parents who don’t value edu…

What exactly makes a crappy school? I went to the school dictated by my geography my whole life which online rankings don’t indicate as anything special - is this just a thinly veiled proxy for SES?

I went to both what people would consider "Crappy schools" and "good schools".

Crappy schools have an awful student body, many of which don't want to be there, are further behind in their learning than their grade indicates, are disruptive, and teachers have to spend large amounts of time calling security to have students removed or disciplining students. Often, the parents blame the schools and teachers for all their kids' problems.

In my experience, some of the teachers were still trying their best (usually young ones that weren't made cynical yet) but others were too burned out to care much since you only had to look around and see it was mainly hopeless.

The crappy school had fights every day in classes and in the hallways and were fairly violent places.

In the good school (last couple years of school) I wasn't sure the teachers were any more talented but the students showed up on time, listened, did their assignments, and were not violent or disruptive. Honestly, it was really strange to me the first few months and felt probably like when a prisoner is put back into society and they don't quite know how to act at school yet. Any slight I'd meet with threatening behavior to defend myself and intimidate, but I found it wasn't necessary after some time. I hated that school too but I think it was more I disliked a lot of the people there and the reason why was because I was initially resentful of their comfortable, happy life and civility, and just how functional things were. People listened to their teachers and wanted to succeed. I know that sounds crazy, but I was used to going to an insane asylum every day year after year and this was different. The friends I made at the crappy school are the best friends I've had but as the years have gone on many of them are dead from suicide or drugs or have had a really difficult go of it as adults. It all catches up.

I spent my entire school life in the public school system of a large city and I would never send my kids to those schools. It's not really that the schools that are "good or bad" per-se - it's the student body that determines that and that is largely decided by the parents and communities of those children. So much money has to be spent on security (my HS had 10 full-time staff) and discipline that there's not money for "nice things". But, the administration knows they need to hit numbers so kids are passed along if they show up and I knew more than a few kids who graduated and couldn't read past a 5th grade level.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#270

Post by WalterBright » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #256

WalterBright wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I looked it up, it was fully in place by summer 2018. P.S. I didn't say "dramatically". I said "zero" improvement. Doing better than zero is as low a bar as possible . I fail to see that as unreasonable. There isn't even a plan for success.

But note that 2020/2021 school years where heavily disrupted by covid. Let's take a look back in a few years to see how they're doing, I'm not sure we can make many inferences from the limited data so far.

There's not even a progress report after it being fully in place for 1.5 school years.

Nothing at all has changed.