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New network of European sleeper trains planned

theguardian.com

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Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#91

Post by toomanybeersies »

zajio1am wrote: post #71
toomanybeersies wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But EU bureaucrats seem intent on socialism Socialism isn't really a dirty word in Europe (or anywhere else in the world) like it is in the USA. 20% of elected representatives in the EU are socialists. So it's less "EU bureaucrats intent on socialism" and more the European zeitgeist.

> Socialism isn't really a dirty word in Europe Depends on which part of Europe. In former communist countries 'socialism' is associated with economic system of their communist past, while center-left politics is called 'social democracy'.

I feel like in the 21st century (at least in the context of parties with widespread support and elected officials), there's no practical difference between social democrats and democratic socialists.

But you're right, the Eastern European parties call themselves "social democrats" and the Western parties call themselves "socialists"

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#92

Post by tgv »

cromka wrote: post #76
tgv wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every year, 3.7 million Dutch visit the Mediterranean. Even if you had sleeper trains with 500 beds (the current ones seem to have around 200), you'd need a staggering 7400 trips (and another 7400 back) for just the Dutch population. Since most people leave within a period of 3 weeks, that's one every 5 minutes. Totally infeasible, I'm afraid.

I understand many of them use cars these days. Otherwise, to counter your argument, there would have to be a plane every 5 minutes, and short-haul narrows bodies don’t carry 500 passengers, either. Cars are not that big of a problem, especially if fully occupied, which I imagine is very often the case when going for holidays. And especially with increasing electrification, they will keep becoming lesser of a carbon f…

I think charging several times during a trip is going to be a blocker. And there are really many planes from the Dutch airports to the Mediterranean: 30 in the coming three hours from AMS, EIN and MST combined.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#93

Post by streamofdigits »

tgv wrote: post #70
streamofdigits wrote: post #45

For measurable environmental impact the network should at least support the annual migration of Homo Europeanus Nordicus to the Mediterranean sea.

Every year, 3.7 million Dutch visit the Mediterranean. Even if you had sleeper trains with 500 beds (the current ones seem to have around 200), you'd need a staggering 7400 trips (and another 7400 back) for just the Dutch population. Since most people leave within a period of 3 weeks, that's one every 5 minutes. Totally infeasible, I'm afraid.

hmm, it might be that your calculation is the start of something wonderful, not the end of it :-)

The narrow holiday season is quite artificial: we live through the pandemic-induced work-from-home experience. rethinking why and when we travel in large numbers seems like a timely idea. Besides facilitating a sustainable migration this lowers the environmental burden at the destinations not to mention the enjoyment of less crowded facilities.

The train size / frequency etc could be worked-on although I suspect you can't achieve large multiple differences.

In any case its not about getting all the summer migration to happen via train. Its more appropriate to think of it as another justification to have a complete and streamlined rail network across Europe (this being another potentially significant and steady source of passengers).

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#94

Post by rpadovani »

ginko wrote: post #50
streamofdigits wrote: post #45

For measurable environmental impact the network should at least support the annual migration of Homo Europeanus Nordicus to the Mediterranean sea.

That would be great. Hopefully the new tunnel[1] linking Zealand and North Germany should make that possible. A direct connection from Oslo to Hamburg would open up so many good train connections. Here's hoping DB doesn't screw up the connection like they did with the Gotthard tunnel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_Fixed_Link

I'm really looking forward to the Brenner Base Tunnel[0]. Apart from cutting train time from Innsbruck to Bolzano from 120 to 50 minutes, it will increase the number of trains that can go through, and I hope it will absorb a lot of the lorries going through the Brenner Pass,

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#95

Post by jodrellblank »

bluGill wrote: post #90
jodrellblank wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, 60% of airports are government owned: https://simpleflying.com/how-airports-make-money/ From that page, Heathrow makes half its money from passengers from operating a train line into the city, car rentals, restaurants, retail, parking, VIP lounges. Is that saying, if you couldn't extract money from a captive audience for how inconvenient the airport is, it wouldn't make enough to cover its own running cost…

> Surely, trains need less infrastructure than cars - a road to every building in the country? Trains need that too. It can be a road from the train station to the building, or it can be tracks. However in the end every building sometimes need something delivered. Maybe the trains allows you to downgrade the road to gravel, but trains still need the road network for that last mile.

You could walk on a mud path to the train station. You could walk on a cobbled street, not wide enough or strong enough for cars, to the train station. It wouldn't be as convenient, but cars are useless without roads in a way that trains aren't.

A two-way road between every building, and space for on-road parking or space for off-road parking around every building, bloats out the space between buildings and lowers density in a way that makes cars more necessary. It's possible for thousands of people to live within a short walk distance of a train station without even resorting to residential towerblocks.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#96

Post by bluGill »

jodrellblank wrote: post #95
bluGill wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely, trains need less infrastructure than cars - a road to every building in the country? Trains need that too. It can be a road from the train station to the building, or it can be tracks. However in the end every building sometimes need something delivered. Maybe the trains allows you to downgrade the road to gravel, but trains still need the road network for that last mile.

You could walk on a mud path to the train station. You could walk on a cobbled street, not wide enough or strong enough for cars, to the train station. It wouldn't be as convenient, but cars are useless without roads in a way that trains aren't. A two-way road between every building, and space for on-road parking or space for off-road parking around every building, bloats out the space between buildings and lowers de…

Which is great until you buy a new bed, your toilet breaks, or any other large service is needed in your house. Sure a plumber can carry everything to your house, but it is much more efficient when he drives a van with all the different pipe adapters that your might need instead of walking to the office. You won't get a heavy appliance down a mud path unless the delivery is scheduled for a few weeks after the last rain.

I agree we don't need large two-way roads everywhere. However we still need a lot of small roads everywhere because some things cannot be done well by humans walking.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#97

Post by mytailorisrich »

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #75
mytailorisrich wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't exist yet... Hence perhaps working on it and investing much more into R&D would be useful. 2% of global emissions is close to negligible. Certainly this does not warrant the constant media coverage against air travel on environmental grounds. This is the usual fluff while the real, hard problems are not discussed. Politics instead of pragmatism. It's really important to go a such important problems in a pr…

Can I have 2% of your paycheck then, if it's negligible?

This is about prioritising issues. If your boat is sinking you do not discuss what to do about the slow drip at the back, you try to solve the massive hole at the front first.

If air travel only accounts for 2% of emissions then whatever we do will have a very small impact overall. So do we really need to bother at the moment or at all? It's not targeted because it makes a difference but because it's politically easier for a number of reasons. People, especially on HN, should really see through this theatre.

For example in France they tried (very badly) to add further taxes on car fuel and that ended in riots. So now they say that they will ban air travel when a train alternative exists. That will make no difference on anything but they can claim that they are doing something (that seems to target the rich more than the poor, so even better).

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#98

Post by _ph_ »

rpadovani wrote: post #94
ginko wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be great. Hopefully the new tunnel[1] linking Zealand and North Germany should make that possible. A direct connection from Oslo to Hamburg would open up so many good train connections. Here's hoping DB doesn't screw up the connection like they did with the Gotthard tunnel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_Fixed_Link

I'm really looking forward to the Brenner Base Tunnel[0]. Apart from cutting train time from Innsbruck to Bolzano from 120 to 50 minutes, it will increase the number of trains that can go through, and I hope it will absorb a lot of the lorries going through the Brenner Pass, [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel

It would be even more awesome, if it were directly connected to the German train system, but on the German side, the connection is severely lacking and might not be there for many years. The state of the German railway system is pretty scandalous. The connection to the Swiss is also overloaded.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#100

Post by globular-toast »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #97
bellyfullofbac wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I have 2% of your paycheck then, if it's negligible?

This is about prioritising issues. If your boat is sinking you do not discuss what to do about the slow drip at the back, you try to solve the massive hole at the front first. If air travel only accounts for 2% of emissions then whatever we do will have a very small impact overall. So do we really need to bother at the moment or at all? It's not targeted because it makes a difference but because it's politically easi…

I think most people here understand profiling and starting with the big target first. But we can and should be doing multiple things at once and air travel is far enough up there to bother with.
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