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How to Think about Pleasure

psyche.co

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Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#51

Post by rytill »

svieira wrote: post #35

"Pleasure is never settled. Indeed, pleasure itself suggests a process, a fluidity, a striving. Pleasure once attained, whether bodily or intellectual, tends not to last. It is pleasing to kick your opponent’s ass at chess; it is pleasing to have finished working out – but, like the great majority of pleasures, these quickly fade, then to be sought after again. It is the seeking – the pursuit – of pleasure that usual…

Can you elaborate on your thoughts here for us? It seems like you’re leading somewhere.

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#52

Post by HKH2 »

prionassembly wrote: post #21
pontifier wrote: post #17

I've had a strange year in which I've been living a very acetic lifestyle... Basically camping while I struggle toward getting permits... Long story. The lack of comfort became too much. I felt like the "pleasures of the body" were a secondary priority and I didn't want to spend the money. It just wasn't possible for me to go on like that though. I had to find an actual house to live in. I feel like I lost the mind o…

It's not good manners to point out spelling mistakes, but it took me a while to go from "acetic" (vinegar-like?) to "ascetic".

At some point, prescription is required for a language to be preserved.

If we're all online, then that's where it has to be.

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#53

Post by pyentropy »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #12

I've wondered whether there is a structural account of pleasure in the brain, in contrast and supplement to the "chemical squirt" hypothesis. Perhaps the alignment of brain rhythms could produce a kind of intrinsically pleasurable harmony, akin to music? The logic is that structural brain harmonies could support novel neural synchronies, which could in turn support Hebbian learning (cells that fire together wire toge…

VTA plays an important role in a number of processes, including [1]

- motivational salience ("want")

- associative learning (if a neutral/novel experience is paired with "painful" or "enjoyable" innate instinct, it elicits a response on its own: money or your favourite sports team winning)

- positively-valenced emotions ("happy", "content") emotions)

- orgasm

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventral_tegmental_area

Via the mesolimbic pathway, from VTA dopamine is signalled to the NAcc, which also has similar functions: processing of motivation, aversion, reward (i.e., incentive salience, pleasure, and positive reinforcement), and reinforcement learning.

As of October 2017, hedonic hotspots have been identified in subcompartments within the nucleus accumbens shell, ventral pallidum, parabrachial nucleus, orbitofrontal cortex (OFC), and insular cortex.

Microinjections of opioids, endocannabinoids, and orexin are capable of enhancing liking in these hotspots. [2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_system#Pleasure_centers

The second Wikipedia link explains the difference between primary and extrinsic reward, "wanting" vs "liking", anhedonia vs aversive salience, and the known information about addiction and neuroanatomy so far.

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#54

Post by danboarder »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #40
js8 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, I don't think they did. Nothing they wrote precludes polyamory and lots of sex, I think what they say is if you are gonna get sex, better try to be really good at it. I think bigger problem with their perspective is that it is very egotistic. For example, the pleasure of playing a video-game really well (a long-term goal) is more important than a pleasure of spending an ad hoc evening with a loved one (a…

The ad hoc evening with a loved one is a long term one in order to keep the relationship healthy.

In this case one evening may be short but the relationship itself is what is long term.

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#55

Post by nsomaru »

cmehdy wrote: post #47
nsomaru wrote: post #23

Schopenhauer is instructive here. First he argues that suffering exceeds pleasure in the world: Unless suffering is the direct and immediate object of life, our existence must entirely fail of its aim. It is absurd to look upon the enormous amount of pain that abounds everywhere in the world, and originates in needs and necessities inseparable from life itself, as serving no purpose at all and the result of mere chan…

We look before and after, And pine for what is not: Our sincerest laughter With some pain is fraught; Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought. Yet if we could scorn Hate, and pride, and fear; If we were things born Not to shed a tear, I know not how thy joy we ever should come near. - Percy Bysshe Shelley (contemporary of Schopenhauer), from "To a Skylark"

This poem is so beautiful, thank you. I will study it.

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#56

Post by retzkek »

kashyapc wrote: post #37

The article mentions Epictetus (incorrectly as "Roman"; he's actually Greek). While he's fantastic[1] on his own, I think Seneca (the Roman Stoic) writes more beautifully about pleasure and virtue—particularly in his essay 'On the Happy Life' , a letter he wrote to his brother. Two out-of-context quotes from it (excuse the length): • "But pleasure is extinguished precisely at the time when it delights. It does not ha…

Note that both the collected Dialogues (letters) of Seneca and Discourses of Epictetus are available from Standard Ebooks for free. I can't speak to the quality of the translations, but as far as e-books go they are always fantastic productions (compared to just grabbing the text off Project Gutenberg).

https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-st...

https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/discourses/georg...

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#57

Post by kashyapc »

retzkek wrote: post #56
kashyapc wrote: post #37

The article mentions Epictetus (incorrectly as "Roman"; he's actually Greek). While he's fantastic[1] on his own, I think Seneca (the Roman Stoic) writes more beautifully about pleasure and virtue—particularly in his essay 'On the Happy Life' , a letter he wrote to his brother. Two out-of-context quotes from it (excuse the length): • "But pleasure is extinguished precisely at the time when it delights. It does not ha…

Note that both the collected Dialogues (letters) of Seneca and Discourses of Epictetus are available from Standard Ebooks for free. I can't speak to the quality of the translations, but as far as e-books go they are always fantastic productions (compared to just grabbing the text off Project Gutenberg). https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-st... https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/discour…

Unless you absolutely cannot afford to, I firmly suggest to invest in a solid English translation. A bad translation is a deal breaker. For Seneca's works, I recommend these:

→ 'Letters on Ethics' (University of Chicago Press) – I consider this to be the definitive English translation; it's done by two of the foremost scholars: Margaret Graver and A. A. Long. This has the full set of 124 letters. It reads extremely well, has a solid introduction with excellent notes throughout, and it's also wonderfully typeset. It can't get better than this. (This costs about 40 euros; if it's a tad pricey for you, see the alternative below. )

→ 'Seneca: Selected Letters' (Oxford World's Classics) — This is a curated list of letters by a reputed scholar, Elaine Fantham. A compelling aspect about this edition is that at the beginning of each letter there's a short summary of it.

→ 'Seneca: Dialogues and Essays' (Oxford World's Classics) — This contains some of Seneca's famous essays on bereavement consolations, on tranquility of the mind, and more. Translation by John Davie; it reads very well. (I also consult an alternative excellent translation, 'Hardship & Happiness'; this was also, like the full set of letters above, commissioned by Chicago University Press; and translated by several scholars.)

And FWIW, I've written[1] last year about suggested English translations for broader Stoicism-related works. Translations matter.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990579

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#58

Post by kashyapc »

trabant00 wrote: post #39

Random thoughts on the topic: - I tend to roll my eyes a little bit whenever stoicism is mentioned. Internal checks and balances for emperors/nobles/incredibly wealthy and powerful men don't really apply for the average guy. Depending on circumstances you might be in need of the exact opposite advice lest you jump out of the office window Saturday at 9 PM. - without dopamine we wouldn't do anything. So arguing agains…

On Stoicism: I suggest to avoid poor remixes (e.g. Ryan Holiday) and pop-Stoicim videos like the plague and seriously engage with the originals for at least two years (yes). See my other comment here[1] for suggestions on robust English translations.

Also, Marcus Aurelius is overtaken by macho guys and business people. Why not? It's nice to associate yourself with a Roman emperor (hence the book titles like "How to think like a Roman emperor" -- avoid this). How about associating with a crippled ex Greek slave, Epictetus, who had a profound influence on Marcus? Doesn't have the same ring to it.

Further, many people don't know that Marcus was a deeply melancholic man. I don't recommend at all to start with his work. I'm saying this after I've read a few translations and a scholarly treatise on his work. (If you wonder where to start, might want to have a gander at this[1].)

And here's the cherry on top from science: the celebrated neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky in Behave (and Joshua Greene in Moral Tribes) talk about experimental evidence on how "virtue ethics (Stoicism is an example of it) is on to something", in a cheerful sense.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990579

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#59

Post by retzkek »

kashyapc wrote: post #57
retzkek wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that both the collected Dialogues (letters) of Seneca and Discourses of Epictetus are available from Standard Ebooks for free. I can't speak to the quality of the translations, but as far as e-books go they are always fantastic productions (compared to just grabbing the text off Project Gutenberg). https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/seneca/dialogues/aubrey-st... https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/discour…

Unless you absolutely cannot afford to, I firmly suggest to invest in a solid English translation. A bad translation is a deal breaker. For Seneca's works, I recommend these: → 'Letters on Ethics' (University of Chicago Press) – I consider this to be the definitive English translation; it's done by two of the foremost scholars: Margaret Graver and A. A. Long. This has the full set of 124 letters. It reads extremely w…

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll check them out. It's too bad the older translations aren't as good, I love that so much classical work is available for free, which greatly increases the accessibility of it. Some people won't (or can't) consider paying any amount of money to try something they may only get a few pages into.

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#60

Post by pontifier »

prionassembly wrote: post #21
pontifier wrote: post #17

I've had a strange year in which I've been living a very acetic lifestyle... Basically camping while I struggle toward getting permits... Long story. The lack of comfort became too much. I felt like the "pleasures of the body" were a secondary priority and I didn't want to spend the money. It just wasn't possible for me to go on like that though. I had to find an actual house to live in. I feel like I lost the mind o…

It's not good manners to point out spelling mistakes, but it took me a while to go from "acetic" (vinegar-like?) to "ascetic".

It's a word I use so infrequently that I was unaware that I misspelled it. Thank you.
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