Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#91

Post by TrackerFF » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

slibhb wrote: post #67

TrackerFF wrote: post #19

In a lot of European countries, a robust social safety net is the great equalizer. You don't get locked up to work in order to afford healthcare, food, etc. - and are thus more free to take chances. Furthermore, strong labor laws have compressed salaries towards the mean, so people are not locking themselves into poverty by working low-wage / low-skill work, but there's a difference enough that people are incentivize…

> You don't get locked up to work in order to afford healthcare, food, etc. - and are thus more free to take chances. If Europeans are more free to take chances, why is there substantially less innovation in Europe? I don't think Europe is "worse" than the US. I think Europe is optimized for the poor whereas the US is optimized for the middle class and above. There are good arguments for both of these situations. In…

Personally, I think we're going to see a change in the trend of relying on two superpowers (USA, China) for tech and innovation. For the past years, it's been increasingly obvious that the political landscape can change almost overnight.

Europe has also been lacking a proper VC scene and culture, but this seems to have changed more in the past years.

So, don't expect the next 20-30 years to be identical to the previous decades.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#92

Post by disposekinetics » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 3:18 PM UTC

kungito wrote: post #87

rayiner wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already are, and Democrats keep trying to nationalize everything.

Like what?

The big one in the news right now is voting, but Jimmy Carter formed the department of education at a federal level.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#93

Post by refurb » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

doytch wrote: post #26

whb07 wrote: post #15

Controlling education is a political life source for the Democratic party in the U.S. One of the largest, if not the largest, unions is the teacher's and they are a major donor to the Democratic party. Thankfully, the one good thing about the shutdowns has been the ability for parents to observe a couple things: * how little the school system cares about the child * the indoctrination and political ideas being passed…

I'm not American, but the core flaw that I've never had explained away for me in voucher or "school choice" systems is how "bad" schools get better. E.g., school in my district is bad. They don't have enough resources, or their teachers are bad. People begin taking their kids out of the school which means the school now has less money. Assuming they could fire teachers at will, they can't even now afford the "better"…

I mean, take a look at how the non-voucher system works in SF. Lottery system and if you end up with a crappy school, you either put your kid in a private school or try and game the system to get them switched. The parents who are poor don’t have the bandwidth or knowledge to do it so they just get stuck with whatever school. So you end up with the same problem. Crappy schools have kids of parents who don’t value education or parents who don’t have an option.

At least with vouchers the parents, rich or poor have a choice where their kids go.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#94

Post by refurb » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

techrat wrote: post #63

mbg721 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That describes why people pay for private school more than it describes why people would support vouchers. The theory is that "school choice" would mean everyone would flee the worst schools and they'd be compelled to clean up their act or dissolve.

Ah, you mean like how the "free market" would police itself if they just got rid of those pesky regulations?

Better than the current “sunk cost mentality” of public schools where poor schools have more money thrown at them until someone finally realizes its not a money issue.

It’s literally the opposite of efficient use of funds. You want to shift more money to the better run schools not the worst run schools.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#95

Post by beforeolives » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

benrbray wrote: post #70

beforeolives wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my own perhaps limited experience, I've never really encountered anyone who is simply incapable of deep thought / critical thinking. I don't know how we're defining deep thought and critical thinking but it's important to recognise that people have limitations to their intellect and for some people that ceiling is very low. If we assume that you have some kind of software job since you're on HN - there are many…

I don't think it's really about computational power -- it's about practice and experience. It's about how hard those people choose to work and what things they choose to put effort into over their lifetime. All those choices accumulate over a lifetime, to the point where I agree, yeah, it'd be really hard for someone who has worked as a nurse their entire life to suddenly start over and start writing software. Just l…

I don't think that my point is getting across because you're focusing on the people that you have most commonly observed in the environment around you. Sure - people can work harder, most of us are average and we don't need to get close to our limits in our jobs. That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking the extreme outliers on the lower end of the intelligence distribution. Those are the people for whom the innate intelligence limit is low, by definition.

People with IQ below 75 can be classified as having a mental disability. That's just under 5% of the population. Do you think those people can take your advice and just put in more effort? What about the people who score just above that threshold? Do you think they could do your job only if they had better teachers? I don't think they could.

We all have natural limitations - it's much better to recognise that some people's limitations are holding them back so much that they can't function normally in modern society. That seems healthier to me than pretending that people just need to apply themselves more.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#96

Post by techrat » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #94

techrat wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, you mean like how the "free market" would police itself if they just got rid of those pesky regulations?

Better than the current “sunk cost mentality” of public schools where poor schools have more money thrown at them until someone finally realizes its not a money issue. It’s literally the opposite of efficient use of funds. You want to shift more money to the better run schools not the worst run schools.

Decades of Republican ratfucking the education system isn't a reason to add more overhead to a starved system by privatizing it.

> Better than...

We know what deregulation does. Texas' energy issues is a great example.

People forget that regulations don't just magically exist to inconvenience the glorious free market...

Regulations are written in blood.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#97

Post by benrbray » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

beforeolives wrote: post #95

benrbray wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's really about computational power -- it's about practice and experience. It's about how hard those people choose to work and what things they choose to put effort into over their lifetime. All those choices accumulate over a lifetime, to the point where I agree, yeah, it'd be really hard for someone who has worked as a nurse their entire life to suddenly start over and start writing software. Just l…

I don't think that my point is getting across because you're focusing on the people that you have most commonly observed in the environment around you. Sure - people can work harder, most of us are average and we don't need to get close to our limits in our jobs. That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking the extreme outliers on the lower end of the intelligence distribution. Those are the people for whom the inna…

Strictly speaking, yes, you're right that some people are mentally deficient. But no one is disagreeing with the fact that people with mental disabilities exist.

So I'm focusing instead on otherwise productive members of society who just don't happen to be scientists or engineers. Those people are definitely in a position to benefit from better educational opportunities.

My intent was to argue against what I read between the lines of the original comment I responded to -- the insidious implication that certain races or certain classes of people have innate mental deficiencies, and that we should use that observation to allocate resources in society.

Further, some technical people unfortunately have the mindset that somehow what we do is special, on a completely different level from what "normal" people do, and that "anyone who works in a non-technical position is mentally deficient". This thinking is absurd -- I've known people who sure, couldn't sit down and compose a 30-page essay, but they can strip a car down to its bare parts and reassemble it, no problem. I'd disagree with anyone who tries to say that's not real intelligence.

Maybe none of this is what you had in mind when you replied to my comment, so forgive me if I misinterpreted you. I responded in the context of the OP.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#98

Post by handrous » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

kingsuper20 wrote: post #71

dwater wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines: https://www.ncsl.org/research/about-state-legislatures/parti... Republican legislatures have shown they are quite capable of passing legislation about education that serves little purpose beyond a political agenda, as this year's crop of bills banning c…

> Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines: Looking at the uproar about Critical Race Theory, it appears that even the deepest red states have school hierarchies run by the blue. In addition, the Department of Education and other federal agencies are a thing.

> it appears that even the deepest red states have school hierarchies run by the blue

This is definitely not the case. Consider: unless consistently-"red" legislatures and governor's offices are putting "blue" people in charge of their educational departments, it couldn't be the case. Further, in many states, individual districts play a major role in deciding the course of education, so even if that were the case, "red" school districts would have to be electing "blue" school boards, and I can 100% confirm that, as one might expect, they do not do this, generally.

[EDIT] further—and I'm heading into speculative territory here, I admit—I'd guess that people holding school administration PhDs—so, qualified for superintendent-type roles—identify, on average, as farther right than the average of PhD holders, and probably than most individual PhD areas of study except maybe business-related ones. There are lots of very conservative school administrators out there.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#99

Post by iammisc » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

kungito wrote: post #31

John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

I feel like the US has to split into separate countries and maybe adopt a system like EU. Everything in the us gets so generalized no one has any agency over it except companies with enough money to push a narrative across 300 mil people. Either that or the way you think about US has to change. I find it hard to believe every state does things the same way but still you say "US" has a problem and not Georgia or Calif…

The US was envisioned as a union of separate countries, like the EU. The EU is sliding towards US-style centralization.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#100

Post by iammisc » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

kungito wrote: post #87

rayiner wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already are, and Democrats keep trying to nationalize everything.

Like what?

Environmental Policy (EPA). Family policy (gay marriage, transgenderism, etc via the Supreme Court). Healthcare (Obamacare). Education (no child left behind, the dept of education). Higher education (federal backed guarantees). We can go on...