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New network of European sleeper trains planned

theguardian.com

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Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#81

Post by Freak_NL »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #53
calpaterson wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. In the UK, experiences vary. The new Caledonian Sleeper (London-Highlands) is apparently a pretty rubbish experience. However, I took the Night Riviera (London - Cornwall) a few years ago and found it a pretty good experience even though I very nearly missed my stop in Truro. The problem for a business traveller is tha…

I've haven't taken the Caledonian sleeper since the revamp but did take it a few times before that. In my experience it was a near perfect form of travel. Arrive at a train station long after most people had gone home, board the train and fall asleep, wake up at the platform very early the next day. You lose practically no 'useful' time.* The one thing which stopped us making use of it more frequently was the cost. I…

Part of the expense can be discounted against sleeping accommodations you would need otherwise though, and for many of us another part of the price is simply investing in something that is desirable for a variety of reasons (ecology being a prominent one).

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#82

Post by marbletiles »

calpaterson wrote: post #19
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

> First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. In the UK, experiences vary. The new Caledonian Sleeper (London-Highlands) is apparently a pretty rubbish experience. However, I took the Night Riviera (London - Cornwall) a few years ago and found it a pretty good experience even though I very nearly missed my stop in Truro. The problem for a business traveller is tha…

The revamped Sleeper is great, albeit pricey, especially now they've sorted the early issues with the new trains and crews.

It's also ideal for getting a full day of work in either London/Glasgow and returning. Doing that by plane is also possible but is environmentally horrible and taxing, doing it by train eats into good chunks of the days either side.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#83

Post by IkmoIkmo »

Ichthypresbyter wrote: post #69
dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have taken the DB sleeper from Amsterdam to Prague. It was great. Not the best night of sleep ever, but it's great to go to have a full day in one city, have a nightcap and sleep on the train, drink a coffee with a light breakfast and be in a new city at 08:00 the next morning. No having to get trains/busses/taxis to airports, waiting around for hours, a short flight where you can't sleep at all for the light and n…

DB got rid of its sleepers (which were the last ones to serve the Netherlands) in 2016. The Austrians bought most of the rolling stock, and kept some of the routes that served Austria going. They've now started expanding again, and a route from Amsterdam to Vienna and Innsbruck has just opened.

What ticketing sites do you guys use? Whenever I want to try (night) trains around Europe I run into a myriad of national websites with poor information on non-national trips, a lack of decent information on what to expect, annoying pricing/planning/booking UIs, and generally lack of information about how it 'works', as in some require you to have an App, a card, to print out tickets etc.

I often just give up.

In that sense, flying somehow feels like a much more standardised and straightforward experience, despite a ton of different ticketing websites, airlines and airports which all have their own apps and gates and conditions etc, too.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#84

Post by iso1631 »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #4
nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

Trains compete with cars, not with airplanes.

Depends on the route -- eurostar from London to Paris/Brussels knocked a lot of flights out. Vey few would choose to drive from Manchester to London when the cheap train (£45 return no time restrictions) is quicker and the fast train is half the time of driving, but people do fly because west london to west manchester is quicker than schelpping to Euston and out from Picadilly - at least until HS2 drops it to under an hour and connects with crossrail.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#85

Post by Scoundreller »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #15
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

I also think the network, as proposed is a problem. It only seems useful if you're Paris based, since this appears to be the center node of the network. edit: This at least appears to be the case for the French startup mentioned and the map displayed at the very top of the article.

> It only seems useful if you're Paris based, since this appears to be the center node of the network

That’s France’s rail network in a nutshell. It’s great, if your trip starts or ends in Paris. If you’re not, you might still go through Paris and driving could be faster than a high-speed train.

The other issue with domestic sleeper networks in France, other than sounding like a terrorist, is that high speed trains usually take 3-4h anyway.

I think the only takers for an overnight equivalent would be tourists that can save a night of stay somewhere. And that’s if you’re not staying with family or friends.

And the trains are almost all electric, so it’s harder to make an argument for “slower, therefore less carbon burn”.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#86

Post by alkonaut »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

Competing with freight at night isn’t necessarily so bad, if the trip benefits from being slow. For example the sleeper I usually take is around 7-8h if done as fast as possible, but that’s not the most convenient duration since you either leave very late or arrive too early. A few hours extra to make it 10 or 12 hours is perfect.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#87

Post by Tijdreiziger »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #83
Ichthypresbyter wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DB got rid of its sleepers (which were the last ones to serve the Netherlands) in 2016. The Austrians bought most of the rolling stock, and kept some of the routes that served Austria going. They've now started expanding again, and a route from Amsterdam to Vienna and Innsbruck has just opened.

What ticketing sites do you guys use? Whenever I want to try (night) trains around Europe I run into a myriad of national websites with poor information on non-national trips, a lack of decent information on what to expect, annoying pricing/planning/booking UIs, and generally lack of information about how it 'works', as in some require you to have an App, a card, to print out tickets etc. I often just give up. In tha…

If you need information on train routes and where to buy tickets, the #1 place to get it is https://www.seat61.com/. It's an incredibly complete site run by a train enthusiast from the UK.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#88

Post by liversage »

dkarp wrote: post #66
ginko wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be great. Hopefully the new tunnel[1] linking Zealand and North Germany should make that possible. A direct connection from Oslo to Hamburg would open up so many good train connections. Here's hoping DB doesn't screw up the connection like they did with the Gotthard tunnel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_Fixed_Link

I once took the train while backpacking from Hamburg to Copenhagen. I was incredibly surprised when part way through the journey I awoke on a ferry. It still blows my mind that they have a train that can roll on and off a ferry. Unfortunately, it looks like it no longer takes the ferry and one day will take that tunnel instead https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/hamburg-to-copenhag...

I live in Copenhagen. Nowadays we have bridges or tunnels everywhere except when traveling to Germany. However, when I was younger ALL train travel outside Zealand (with Lolland and Falster) would involve going on a ferry. The carriages were on the lower deck sometimes mixed with cars and sometimes with cars on a separate deck. After departure you could leave the train for a nice break. It wasn't particularly fast but very relaxing. Surprisingly, I also remember that I sometimes would meet old friends while strolling on the deck. These ferries were bottlenecks and would put a lot of people in the same place at the same time.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#89

Post by VBprogrammer »

Freak_NL wrote: post #81
VBprogrammer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've haven't taken the Caledonian sleeper since the revamp but did take it a few times before that. In my experience it was a near perfect form of travel. Arrive at a train station long after most people had gone home, board the train and fall asleep, wake up at the platform very early the next day. You lose practically no 'useful' time.* The one thing which stopped us making use of it more frequently was the cost. I…

Part of the expense can be discounted against sleeping accommodations you would need otherwise though, and for many of us another part of the price is simply investing in something that is desirable for a variety of reasons (ecology being a prominent one).

For us specifically that didn't work out because the main reason we were travelling was usually to see friends or family who we'd be staying with anyway. I appreciate that's not the general case.

While I'm happy to spend a little more for the sake of the environment we're talking something like 3-5x more expensive.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#90

Post by bluGill »

jodrellblank wrote: post #67
choeger wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down! I would not be so certain on that one. The downside of trains is the massive infrastructure requirements. I don't think there are any privately funded and profitable tracks anywhere in Europe. Government pays for this, of course. Of course, if you only account for carbon dioxide, things can look different.

In Europe, 60% of airports are government owned: https://simpleflying.com/how-airports-make-money/ From that page, Heathrow makes half its money from passengers from operating a train line into the city, car rentals, restaurants, retail, parking, VIP lounges. Is that saying, if you couldn't extract money from a captive audience for how inconvenient the airport is, it wouldn't make enough to cover its own running cost…

> Surely, trains need less infrastructure than cars - a road to every building in the country?

Trains need that too. It can be a road from the train station to the building, or it can be tracks. However in the end every building sometimes need something delivered.

Maybe the trains allows you to downgrade the road to gravel, but trains still need the road network for that last mile.

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