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New network of European sleeper trains planned

theguardian.com

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Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#61

Post by toomanybeersies »

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #31
teekert wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying is just too cheap ;) It's easy to say, but if you look at the environmental impact, it really is too cheap. If airlines would pay the same tax on fuel as cars and were expected to compensate for their pollution, they'd be a lot less attractive.

CO2 analysis of train travel needs to take into account the cost (and emissions) of building and maintaining the rail network. The other factor is that air travel is consistently profitable in the EU, without subsidies. But the reverse is true of rail. The simplest solution is just to impose a $100/ton carbon tax, and let the market figure it out. But EU bureaucrats seem intent on socialism and planned economies inst…

> But EU bureaucrats seem intent on socialism

Socialism isn't really a dirty word in Europe (or anywhere else in the world) like it is in the USA. 20% of elected representatives in the EU are socialists.

So it's less "EU bureaucrats intent on socialism" and more the European zeitgeist.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#62

Post by detaro »

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #31
teekert wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying is just too cheap ;) It's easy to say, but if you look at the environmental impact, it really is too cheap. If airlines would pay the same tax on fuel as cars and were expected to compensate for their pollution, they'd be a lot less attractive.

CO2 analysis of train travel needs to take into account the cost (and emissions) of building and maintaining the rail network. The other factor is that air travel is consistently profitable in the EU, without subsidies. But the reverse is true of rail. The simplest solution is just to impose a $100/ton carbon tax, and let the market figure it out. But EU bureaucrats seem intent on socialism and planned economies inst…

Where in the EU is air travel not subsidized in some way?

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#63

Post by toomanybeersies »

ginko wrote: post #50
streamofdigits wrote: post #45

For measurable environmental impact the network should at least support the annual migration of Homo Europeanus Nordicus to the Mediterranean sea.

That would be great. Hopefully the new tunnel[1] linking Zealand and North Germany should make that possible. A direct connection from Oslo to Hamburg would open up so many good train connections. Here's hoping DB doesn't screw up the connection like they did with the Gotthard tunnel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_Fixed_Link

Getting off topic, but skimming past I read that as "the new tunnel linking New Zealand and North Germany", which would be an impressive feat of engineering!

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#64

Post by toomanybeersies »

choeger wrote: post #59
toomanybeersies wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit of a false comparison though. Alongside your flight, you also need to pay for a taxis/Ubers/trains to and from the airport on each side, and a night in a hotel. That can easily add an extra 300 Euro to your trip (one way).

That hotel night might not be necessary when you take a plane, though. Maybe you just safe a day of vacation instead? In that case, how much money does the plane trip safe you ?

In that case, you can take a plane.

You could even take the overnight train one way, and fly the other.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#65

Post by johannes1234321 »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #63
ginko wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be great. Hopefully the new tunnel[1] linking Zealand and North Germany should make that possible. A direct connection from Oslo to Hamburg would open up so many good train connections. Here's hoping DB doesn't screw up the connection like they did with the Gotthard tunnel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_Fixed_Link

Getting off topic, but skimming past I read that as "the new tunnel linking New Zealand and North Germany", which would be an impressive feat of engineering!

Critical part with that route is to go really through the direct line through the core and bit the long way close to surface.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#66

Post by dkarp »

ginko wrote: post #50
streamofdigits wrote: post #45

For measurable environmental impact the network should at least support the annual migration of Homo Europeanus Nordicus to the Mediterranean sea.

That would be great. Hopefully the new tunnel[1] linking Zealand and North Germany should make that possible. A direct connection from Oslo to Hamburg would open up so many good train connections. Here's hoping DB doesn't screw up the connection like they did with the Gotthard tunnel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_Fixed_Link

I once took the train while backpacking from Hamburg to Copenhagen. I was incredibly surprised when part way through the journey I awoke on a ferry. It still blows my mind that they have a train that can roll on and off a ferry. Unfortunately, it looks like it no longer takes the ferry and one day will take that tunnel instead https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/hamburg-to-copenhag...

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#67

Post by jodrellblank »

choeger wrote: post #57
gaff33 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If just you look at flight vs train then sure the flight will win. But the train goes from the city centre, and includes a night of accomodation. If you look at taxi + flight + taxi + night at hotel - the train will be attractive. If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down!

> If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down! I would not be so certain on that one. The downside of trains is the massive infrastructure requirements. I don't think there are any privately funded and profitable tracks anywhere in Europe. Government pays for this, of course. Of course, if you only account for carbon dioxide, things can look different.

In Europe, 60% of airports are government owned: https://simpleflying.com/how-airports-make-money/ From that page, Heathrow makes half its money from passengers from operating a train line into the city, car rentals, restaurants, retail, parking, VIP lounges. Is that saying, if you couldn't extract money from a captive audience for how inconvenient the airport is, it wouldn't make enough to cover its own running costs?

Surely, trains need less infrastructure than cars - a road to every building in the country? Government pays for this, of course.

https://greennews.ie/eu-airlines-propped-up-subsidies/ claims that small European airports are not profitable, and are propped up by government subsidies, which RyanAir uses to undercut competitor rates, and they essentially act as a subsidy to RyanAir.

Jet fuel is not taxed in the EU (same link), but diesel train fuel is taxed in the UK ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon_Oil_Duty#Trains ).

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#68

Post by saddlerustle »

gaff33 wrote: post #6
nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

If just you look at flight vs train then sure the flight will win. But the train goes from the city centre, and includes a night of accomodation. If you look at taxi + flight + taxi + night at hotel - the train will be attractive. If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down!

The EU ETS applies to flights within the EU, so carbon externalities are already priced in.

Also the choice isn't between trains and poorly connected airports. You can build high speed rail connections between city centres and airports, and many cities do so.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#69

Post by Ichthypresbyter »

dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #55
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

I have taken the DB sleeper from Amsterdam to Prague. It was great. Not the best night of sleep ever, but it's great to go to have a full day in one city, have a nightcap and sleep on the train, drink a coffee with a light breakfast and be in a new city at 08:00 the next morning. No having to get trains/busses/taxis to airports, waiting around for hours, a short flight where you can't sleep at all for the light and n…

DB got rid of its sleepers (which were the last ones to serve the Netherlands) in 2016. The Austrians bought most of the rolling stock, and kept some of the routes that served Austria going. They've now started expanding again, and a route from Amsterdam to Vienna and Innsbruck has just opened.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#70

Post by tgv »

streamofdigits wrote: post #45

For measurable environmental impact the network should at least support the annual migration of Homo Europeanus Nordicus to the Mediterranean sea.

Every year, 3.7 million Dutch visit the Mediterranean. Even if you had sleeper trains with 500 beds (the current ones seem to have around 200), you'd need a staggering 7400 trips (and another 7400 back) for just the Dutch population. Since most people leave within a period of 3 weeks, that's one every 5 minutes. Totally infeasible, I'm afraid.
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