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How to Think about Pleasure

psyche.co

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Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#41

Post by yboris »

There's a whole field of Positive Psychology studying happiness (and pleasure) and yet the article doesn't mention it once.

The researchers have uncovered a tremendous amount about this topic (see Paul Bloom's "How Pleasure Works: The New Science of Why We Like What We Like", "Stumbling on Happiness" by Daniel Gilbert and the multi-author paper "If Money Doesn't Make You Happy Then You Probably Aren't Spending It Right"), and philosophers have thought about this topic for centuries.

The best reconciliation of philosophy and (recent studies in) psychology of it all is by Michael Bishop and his book: The Good Life: Unifying the Philosophy and Psychology of Well-Being

https://www.amazon.com/Good-Life-Philosophy-Psychology-Well-...

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#42

Post by dhimes »

rsj_hn wrote: post #25
deepsun wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more interesting question is would you feel it if you didn't know any one who lived differently? Because I believe that comfort is very relative to others. If you don't know anyone living better -- you're happy.

If you are as comfortable as your peers, then you are not at a disadvantage when competing for mates, and neither are your own offspring, so yeah, it's a big deal. We have evolved with the understanding that we need to compete with peers in order to be able to pass our genes on. We are not competing against trees or even our former selves, just against peers.

Yeah but sometimes when the pain in my arm causes me to wake at night I don't really give a darn what anybody else is feeling. I just want the pain in my arm to stop.

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#43

Post by hammock »

andelu wrote: post #26
nsomaru wrote: post #23

Schopenhauer is instructive here. First he argues that suffering exceeds pleasure in the world: Unless suffering is the direct and immediate object of life, our existence must entirely fail of its aim. It is absurd to look upon the enormous amount of pain that abounds everywhere in the world, and originates in needs and necessities inseparable from life itself, as serving no purpose at all and the result of mere chan…

I love this quote, but can someone explain to me what is meant with "Unless suffering is the direct and immediate object of life, our existence must entirely fail of its aim."?

It's a way of saying suffering is the only guarantee in life. If you spend your life trying for anything other than suffering, you will inevitably fail.

This is again paraphrased at the end of the quote: "misfortune in general is the rule."

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#44

Post by adrianrocamora »

trabant00 wrote: post #39

Random thoughts on the topic: - I tend to roll my eyes a little bit whenever stoicism is mentioned. Internal checks and balances for emperors/nobles/incredibly wealthy and powerful men don't really apply for the average guy. Depending on circumstances you might be in need of the exact opposite advice lest you jump out of the office window Saturday at 9 PM. - without dopamine we wouldn't do anything. So arguing agains…

"for emperors/nobles/incredibly wealthy and powerful men" Epictetus was a disabled slave and he predates Marcus Aurelius

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#45

Post by irrational »

deepsun wrote: post #24
pontifier wrote: post #17

I've had a strange year in which I've been living a very acetic lifestyle... Basically camping while I struggle toward getting permits... Long story. The lack of comfort became too much. I felt like the "pleasures of the body" were a secondary priority and I didn't want to spend the money. It just wasn't possible for me to go on like that though. I had to find an actual house to live in. I feel like I lost the mind o…

The more interesting question is would you feel it if you didn't know any one who lived differently? Because I believe that comfort is very relative to others. If you don't know anyone living better -- you're happy.

This is an interesting thought. I sometimes wonder about those who live in squalor, how can they be happy knowing there are people like me living in nice middle class homes? But then I think that I am happy, despite knowing that in my same city there are people living in absolute mansions. So, I know that there are people nearby that live better than I do, but for some reason I don’t take them into consideration when it comes to my own happiness.

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#46

Post by travisgriggs »

hammock wrote: post #43
andelu wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love this quote, but can someone explain to me what is meant with "Unless suffering is the direct and immediate object of life, our existence must entirely fail of its aim."?

It's a way of saying suffering is the only guarantee in life. If you spend your life trying for anything other than suffering, you will inevitably fail. This is again paraphrased at the end of the quote: "misfortune in general is the rule."

So Putin was right, huh?

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#47

Post by cmehdy »

nsomaru wrote: post #23

Schopenhauer is instructive here. First he argues that suffering exceeds pleasure in the world: Unless suffering is the direct and immediate object of life, our existence must entirely fail of its aim. It is absurd to look upon the enormous amount of pain that abounds everywhere in the world, and originates in needs and necessities inseparable from life itself, as serving no purpose at all and the result of mere chan…

We look before and after,

And pine for what is not:

Our sincerest laughter

With some pain is fraught;

Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought.

Yet if we could scorn

Hate, and pride, and fear;

If we were things born

Not to shed a tear,

I know not how thy joy we ever should come near.

- Percy Bysshe Shelley (contemporary of Schopenhauer), from "To a Skylark"

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#48

Post by kgwxd »

irrational wrote: post #45
deepsun wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more interesting question is would you feel it if you didn't know any one who lived differently? Because I believe that comfort is very relative to others. If you don't know anyone living better -- you're happy.

This is an interesting thought. I sometimes wonder about those who live in squalor, how can they be happy knowing there are people like me living in nice middle class homes? But then I think that I am happy, despite knowing that in my same city there are people living in absolute mansions. So, I know that there are people nearby that live better than I do, but for some reason I don’t take them into consideration when…

I feel it's way more relative to my own recent experiences, rather than what I see others having. I'm normally an absolute baby when it comes to even minor things because I'm usually quite comfortable. But for a short while after a major struggle, nothing minor bothers me.

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#49

Post by slothtrop »

trabant00 wrote: post #39

Random thoughts on the topic: - I tend to roll my eyes a little bit whenever stoicism is mentioned. Internal checks and balances for emperors/nobles/incredibly wealthy and powerful men don't really apply for the average guy. Depending on circumstances you might be in need of the exact opposite advice lest you jump out of the office window Saturday at 9 PM. - without dopamine we wouldn't do anything. So arguing agains…

Partial to Epicureanism myself. The Stoic model can be helpful in certain ways such as there principles echoed in CBT, but it does have flaws.

Re: How to Think about Pleasure

#50

Post by garyrob »

nsomaru wrote: post #23

Schopenhauer is instructive here. First he argues that suffering exceeds pleasure in the world: Unless suffering is the direct and immediate object of life, our existence must entirely fail of its aim. It is absurd to look upon the enormous amount of pain that abounds everywhere in the world, and originates in needs and necessities inseparable from life itself, as serving no purpose at all and the result of mere chan…

I'm a practicing Zen Buddhist, and the subject being discussed here definitely relates, including the Shelley quote someone put in this subthread. From https://www.lionsroar.com/what-are-the-four-noble-truths/ :

What are the four noble truths? Buddhism’s famed four truths are called noble because they liberate us from suffering. They are the Buddha’s basic teaching, encapsulating the entire Buddhist path.

1. Suffering

Life always involves suffering, in obvious and subtle forms. Even when things seem good, we always feel an undercurrent of anxiety and uncertainty inside.

2. The Cause of Suffering

The cause of suffering is craving and fundamental ignorance. We suffer because of our mistaken belief that we are a separate, independent, solid “I.” The painful and futile struggle to maintain this delusion of ego is known as samsara, or cyclic existence.

3. The End of Suffering

The good news is that our obscurations are temporary. They are like passing clouds that obscure the sun of our enlightened nature, which is always present. Therefore, suffering can end because our obscurations can be purified and awakened mind is always available to us.

4. The Path

By living ethically, practicing meditation, and developing wisdom, we can take exactly the same journey to enlightenment and freedom from suffering that the buddhas do. We too can wake up.

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