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Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

nytimes.com

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Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#71

Post by kingsuper20 »

dwater wrote: post #53
whb07 wrote: post #15

Controlling education is a political life source for the Democratic party in the U.S. One of the largest, if not the largest, unions is the teacher's and they are a major donor to the Democratic party. Thankfully, the one good thing about the shutdowns has been the ability for parents to observe a couple things: * how little the school system cares about the child * the indoctrination and political ideas being passed…

Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines: https://www.ncsl.org/research/about-state-legislatures/parti... Republican legislatures have shown they are quite capable of passing legislation about education that serves little purpose beyond a political agenda, as this year's crop of bills banning c…

> Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines:

Looking at the uproar about Critical Race Theory, it appears that even the deepest red states have school hierarchies run by the blue. In addition, the Department of Education and other federal agencies are a thing.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#72

Post by Ensorceled »

ipaddr wrote: post #46
Ensorceled wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do all of that in Canada, for 3K per student less AND get much better results (at least on average).

Why do you think Canada gets a better results?

To be clear, the results aren't great. We pay teachers more, we have pretty much no focus on elite athletics, less political mucking around in the actual education process.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#73

Post by whb07 »

_xy8h wrote: post #52
whb07 wrote: post #15

Controlling education is a political life source for the Democratic party in the U.S. One of the largest, if not the largest, unions is the teacher's and they are a major donor to the Democratic party. Thankfully, the one good thing about the shutdowns has been the ability for parents to observe a couple things: * how little the school system cares about the child * the indoctrination and political ideas being passed…

Alright. You rendered your entire point to "hurr, left wing bad" but with just many more words. For anyone else, take a look at who keeps cutting funding to education and funneling funds to profit oriented companies before you let this guy play this kind of disingenuous game here. Especially as Reason's positions often carry the Libertarian bent of "fuck you, got mine" as the motivation to further erode the equal pla…

No, they “f** you I got mine” attitude is exactly what a person like myself hates to see. It’s the same thing as FB pushing for social media/internet regulations, it makes you wonder why they are pushing for it.

When you create a department of X, the actual incentive is for that department to make things worse so they can get more funding.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#74

Post by whb07 »

dwater wrote: post #53
whb07 wrote: post #15

Controlling education is a political life source for the Democratic party in the U.S. One of the largest, if not the largest, unions is the teacher's and they are a major donor to the Democratic party. Thankfully, the one good thing about the shutdowns has been the ability for parents to observe a couple things: * how little the school system cares about the child * the indoctrination and political ideas being passed…

Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines: https://www.ncsl.org/research/about-state-legislatures/parti... Republican legislatures have shown they are quite capable of passing legislation about education that serves little purpose beyond a political agenda, as this year's crop of bills banning c…

Well a couple things to note:

1. An entrepreneurial teacher/teachers could provide a service for these suddenly flush parents at $4600 per child.

2. Most politicians, from either side are either corrupt or incompetent, so these labels don’t matter much to me. But if you actually look at the people running most say schools/admins and even large chunks of the government bureaucracy it’s people who believe in large government and like that lifestyle. This is true even in deep red areas.

Finally, the argument “more money”/resources needed to improve the bad quality is something that has been going on for 50+ years and it’s gotten worse over time. At what point do you say, “geez guess more money isn’t the answer!”

I think Thomas Sowell said once something along the lines that the black schools in DC at about late 1800s-early 1900s was OUTPERFORMING those of the white schools in the region. If one is to look at the present day schooling in the same region, those children/teens are functionally illiterate.

So what needs to be done, is to give a voucher to every parent to decide where to go. Right now the system sends MORE money to a school if it’s failing, and or they allow the failing school to survive.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#75

Post by UK-Al05 »

John23832 wrote: post #61
shawnz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with their interpretation. "Be more ambitious" isn't a solution to poverty. There are plenty of ambitious people to compete with at every income level.

Your (and the above's) interpretation of things unsaid are weird. I said "do", as in "to perform an action". Ambition might lead you to do things, but that's not what I address.

The working class perform a lot of action. They work incredibly long hours and are still poor.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#76

Post by kingsuper20 »

ipaddr wrote: post #64
kingsuper20 wrote: post #11

You have to ask if the majority of 'educated' people actually do things of value. Perhaps we should simply follow a Lysenkoist approach of simply handing out a diploma to one and all. Forgive me for the old man moment, but I was just musing about how little my life has changed since the 1970s. Noticeable differences: TVs have more pixels, airliners look the same but are slower, you can order manufactured goods from y…

A degree holder in any field in 1970 could open many doors. Today a degree by itself could land you at Burger King. You need more education to obtain less now.

I expect that the main value was in proving you could sit at a desk for eight hours a day.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#77

Post by [deleted] »

dwater wrote: post #65
zozbot234 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The failing schools will also get fewer students going for them. Money per student will be the same as it always was, and quite often with a better student/teacher ratio as well.

No. Schools benefit from economies of scale like almost everything else. If you have a school building designed for 2000 students and you have 600 attending, do you think it will be cheaper, the same, or more expensive per student to operate the building? It will cost more per student, which leaves less money available for teachers so the student/teacher ratio would get worse. The facilities will not be kept up as re…

[deleted]

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#78

Post by slumdev »

The first statistic in the article (high school completion rate) is not an appropriate measure.

There's a growing body of evidence that high school seniors are being graduated whether they're capable or not, so a diploma in 2016 means much less than a diploma from 1976:

https://www.uschamber.com/above-the-fold/high-school-seniors...

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#79

Post by shawnz »

John23832 wrote: post #61
shawnz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with their interpretation. "Be more ambitious" isn't a solution to poverty. There are plenty of ambitious people to compete with at every income level.

Your (and the above's) interpretation of things unsaid are weird. I said "do", as in "to perform an action". Ambition might lead you to do things, but that's not what I address.

Consider this thought experiment. Think of the people working at your place of employment in low-level positions who make less money than you. Do you think they are on average doing less productive work than you, or less likely to be "doers"? I am guessing you feel the answer is yes.

Now think of the people in high-level positions who make more than you. Do you think they are on average doing more productive work than you? I am guessing you feel the answer is not so obvious with this question.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#80

Post by mbg721 »

techrat wrote: post #63
mbg721 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That describes why people pay for private school more than it describes why people would support vouchers. The theory is that "school choice" would mean everyone would flee the worst schools and they'd be compelled to clean up their act or dissolve.

Ah, you mean like how the "free market" would police itself if they just got rid of those pesky regulations?

I don't exactly see how that's similar; no one is complaining that their school district is lousy because it's overregulated, they're complaining that it's mismanaged or corrupt and that without something like vouchers, only the wealthy can opt out, and poorer kids get trapped.

Ultimately I think pure free-market school choice in practice would fail not so much because of regulatory capture or a cash-grab, but because changing schools is disruptive and won't fix the problems of students with dysfunctional home lives.

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