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New network of European sleeper trains planned

theguardian.com

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Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#21

Post by justincormack »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

A lot were being discontinued, and the number had declined substantially in the last few years.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#22

Post by justincormack »

zip1234 wrote: post #10
gaff33 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If just you look at flight vs train then sure the flight will win. But the train goes from the city centre, and includes a night of accomodation. If you look at taxi + flight + taxi + night at hotel - the train will be attractive. If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down!

I'm not sure how externalities should be priced, but it does seem like a good idea, especially in the age of climate change. It is likely politically and practically very difficult though.

France are I think effectively banning internal (non connecting) flights in return for the airline bailout. Most of the night trains are international, but the EU could ban short non connecting flights overall too at some point.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#23

Post by LeanderK »

This is a great idea. I really like the concept of sleeper trains but I don't think they make sense for when for most national destinations. A german sleeper train network only has a few routes that are long enough. But when viewed from a European perspective, there should be enough connections long enough for a real sleeper-train experience.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#24

Post by justincormack »

swiley wrote: post #17
globular-toast wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the cost to your children? Air travel is just too cheap.

My dad worked in DC three days every week (so that's two nights he wasn't home) and still managed to teach me and my siblings math (we were home schooled) and find time for fun with us. I don't want to sound harsh but being away for short periods of time isn't an excuse for bad parenting.

The OP meant destroying the environment for your children, not time spent with them I think.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#25

Post by tokai »

swiley wrote: post #17
globular-toast wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the cost to your children? Air travel is just too cheap.

My dad worked in DC three days every week (so that's two nights he wasn't home) and still managed to teach me and my siblings math (we were home schooled) and find time for fun with us. I don't want to sound harsh but being away for short periods of time isn't an excuse for bad parenting.

The price globular is mentioning is surely regarding CO2 emissions. If it was about the time spend being away from children, the train would never win over the airplane.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#26

Post by ginko »

justincormack wrote: post #22
zip1234 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how externalities should be priced, but it does seem like a good idea, especially in the age of climate change. It is likely politically and practically very difficult though.

France are I think effectively banning internal (non connecting) flights in return for the airline bailout. Most of the night trains are international, but the EU could ban short non connecting flights overall too at some point.

>but the EU could ban short non connecting flights overall too at some point.

First thing the EU should do is to finally get rid of the aviation fuel tax exemption for intra-EU flights.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#27

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

ploika wrote: post #9
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trains compete with cars, not with airplanes.

High-speed rail can absolutely compete with short-haul flights between (some) European cities.

Yes, but that's beside the point.

People take the train in the same situations when they drive a car, and travel time isn't always the most important criterion.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#28

Post by ginko »

dsr_ wrote: post #11
gaff33 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If just you look at flight vs train then sure the flight will win. But the train goes from the city centre, and includes a night of accomodation. If you look at taxi + flight + taxi + night at hotel - the train will be attractive. If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down!

I don't think you can always add in the price of a hotel night. If I'm flying from Paris to Copenhagen at 0900, arriving at 1100 and being in the city center by 1200, I wasn't expecting to have to pay for a night in Paris. A train that leaves Paris the day before at 1347 and arrives at 0655 the next morning (current schedule) isn't as useful, unless what I really wanted was to spend all day in Copenhagen instead of h…

>A train that leaves Paris the day before at 1347 and arrives at 0655 the next morning (current schedule) isn't as useful

That's with several transfers. No way a direct train would take 17 hours for that connection. Most likely it'd leave late at night and arrive in the morning.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#29

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

calpaterson wrote: post #16
nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

After the politically inevitable taxes on short-haul flights are brought in, it may not be. As Hebert Stein said (on a different subject): if it can't go on forever it will stop. Railways also benefit from considerable cost economies of scale, similar to the post office, the internet and of course...short haul flights. I wonder what the cost of flying will be when passenger seat miles drop by a factor of 5-10.

Why do you think the taxes are inevitable? Not only are short-haul flights in Eastern Europe not heavily taxed, the building and running of the airports has been heavily subsidized. It has more than paid for itself by bringing tourism income to the region, and encouraging the diaspora to regularly revisit and spend the money they have earned abroad.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#30

Post by corobo »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #20
nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

The article discusses the price: Aumont was reluctant to give ticket prices, but said these would be competitive with that of a short-haul flight, including what he called the “hidden costs”. “This includes what you would have to pay for baggage and things like taxis to and from the airport,” he said. So it will cost more than a flight, but not by much. >> Train travel is just too expensive. Why do you say this? I tr…

> Aumont was reluctant to give ticket prices, but said these would be competitive with that of a short-haul flight

If I'm booking time off work and the price is the same I'm going to opt for a longer holiday

Good luck Aumont

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