Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#21

Post by benrbray » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 12:36 PM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #8

Education is a multiplier of IQ, not an equalizer. Many people, although policymakers won't admit it, don't have the IQ to study at the high school level, for example learning algebra. Even more people don't have the IQ to study at the college level, for example studying calculus and writing a coherent, footnoted term paper. And only a small fraction of the population has the IQ to do significant research and earn a…

In my own perhaps limited experience, I've never really encountered anyone who is simply incapable of deep thought / critical thinking. I've met plenty of people who have a learned helplessness when it comes to, say, math. I've studied alongside classmates who could't spend as much time studying as me, simply because they had to support themselves with part-time or full-time work just to keep their head above water. I've met plenty of people who are more or less happy with their current job, and spend time thinking critically about their hobby or other non-academic things.

Sure, all other things held equal, maybe inherent intelligence is the limiting factor. But that's the point -- not everything else is equal. There are barriers other than IQ preventing people from achieving more, and I think we'd all be better off helping them overcome those barriers.

Besides, IQ tests are a pretty phony measure of intelligence. They're about as reliable as lie detectors.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#22

Post by Ensorceled » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 12:36 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #10

John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

> while also chronically underfunding schools Schools are not underfunded in the U.S., they waste money. Big difference.

As with health care, the US spends near the top[1] per student and ranks among the worst for results.

[1] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#23

Post by marcinzm » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 12:37 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #18

zozbot234 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while also chronically underfunding schools Schools are not underfunded in the U.S., they waste money. Big difference.

Sure. I can agree with that. The point being that, with the current schooling infrastructure, the amount of money needed to do what needs to be done isn't there.

No amount of money will fix a broken system from the inside since the money will go to those who broke the system in the first place.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#24

Post by wayoutthere » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 12:37 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

Holy hell dude, are you calling the working class lazy and the professional class hard-working?! This tells me you don’t have a lot of contact with the working class. The working class busts their asses while most software devs I know work about 2 hours a day from their couch in pajamas.

Someone who works at a warehouse or fast food joint is a much harder worker than a software architect. Probably also working 60-80 hours a week across a couple jobs just to pay rent. Meanwhile I just spout bullshit all day and play corporate politics without really knowing anything nor having much ambition, and I’m somehow worth 20-40x what someone at an Amazon warehouse is.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#25

Post by larrymyers » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 12:37 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #10

John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

> while also chronically underfunding schools Schools are not underfunded in the U.S., they waste money. Big difference.

For what we expect of schools they are underfunded. Schools provide before and after care outside of normal hours, they provide all 3 meals to many students. Counseling, social services, health care ... it's not just teachers in the classroom.

Now, if the US wanted to actually fix poverty and inequality dealing with the symptoms wouldn't roll down to the schools to deal with.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#26

Post by doytch » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 12:38 PM UTC

whb07 wrote: post #15

Controlling education is a political life source for the Democratic party in the U.S. One of the largest, if not the largest, unions is the teacher's and they are a major donor to the Democratic party. Thankfully, the one good thing about the shutdowns has been the ability for parents to observe a couple things: * how little the school system cares about the child * the indoctrination and political ideas being passed…

I'm not American, but the core flaw that I've never had explained away for me in voucher or "school choice" systems is how "bad" schools get better.

E.g., school in my district is bad. They don't have enough resources, or their teachers are bad. People begin taking their kids out of the school which means the school now has less money. Assuming they could fire teachers at will, they can't even now afford the "better" teachers who would likely cost more. They definitely can't afford more learning resources or an expansion to lower class sizes.

So how do you prevent schools either going into a vicious or virtuous cycle?

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#27

Post by xwolfi » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 12:38 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

I think you're wrong. Doers have always been able to progress better than parasites, across social classes. Since the beginning of time.

What "changed", is that before, imagination and creativity were unnecessary for the mass. You had the field, the factory, your dad's craft or utility store, the army, the navy etc etc. Things were predictable, sorted by first level need.

Now hum you're a data analyst in a crypto exchange, what's the public school doing to make others armed to reach this social function?

I had a french education, very wide and messy, strict and deep, in a safe and rich private school, and I find that lack of desire to focus on easy equalitarian checkboxes gave me the flexibility to accept there's no purpose or goal to life and you have to adapt. In the Hong Kong bank I work at now, I see an enormous over-representation of french people and I wonder if that's a tell... but maybe it's just we learned english and flee the country.

So weirdly, I think before people did stuff and today you have to create stuff, education cannot be simple and follow premade receipes to teach peasants how to read to be the equal of factory workers. It has to go deep, focus on building a dynamic intelligence.

Or in not so many words: maybe equality isn't as useful to teach or reach as adaptability.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#28

Post by zozbot234 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 12:38 PM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #8

Education is a multiplier of IQ, not an equalizer. Many people, although policymakers won't admit it, don't have the IQ to study at the high school level, for example learning algebra. Even more people don't have the IQ to study at the college level, for example studying calculus and writing a coherent, footnoted term paper. And only a small fraction of the population has the IQ to do significant research and earn a…

I.Q. is overrated because it lets failing educators and failing educational methodologies ("let the kids discover all the math by themselves! See, no need to teach!") off the hook. I'm willing to bet that even a random kid with no more than a room temperature I.Q. can learn all the algebra they need for school by playing some DragonBox.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#29

Post by im3w1l » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 12:38 PM UTC

Ensorceled wrote: post #13

temp8964 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds amazing. So the group of kids with 70% fatherless can achieve the same as the group of kids with 30% fatherless! Wow.

What does this even mean? What in-group jargon is this?

I think he says that 70% of kids in one group are fatherless, and 30% of kids in another group are. And then saying that there must be an achievement gap because of this difference.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#30

Post by kingsuper20 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 12:38 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #10

John23832 wrote: post #7

Two parts: First, I think the ability to DO THINGS is the great equalizer at this point. Being a do-er lifts you out of poverty (or at least out of poverty's worst resting state). Being a do-er expands your network. Being a do-er prolongs your life (people with jobs/daily activities tend to live longer healthier lives). The best part about this is that technology has made it easier to become a do-er. You don't need a…

> while also chronically underfunding schools Schools are not underfunded in the U.S., they waste money. Big difference.

It's remarkable how much the per capita, inflation corrected cost per pupil in California has gone up in 50 years.

My own elementary school (not in CA), has double the amount of staff with the same pupil head count, plus I don't doubt that the salaries have risen faster than inflation and/or GDP improvements. OTOH, teachers were famously poorly paid in days of yore.